This is a weird post for me to write. Maybe I should first tell you that I graduated from John MacArthur’s seminary. You should probably know that I chose that seminary above all others because I was drawn to John MacArthur’s fearless preaching of the truth as God revealed it in Scripture. I value the education I received at the Master’s Seminary.

But—oh my gosh—I just heard an audio recording in which John MacArthur demeans and dismisses Beth Moore. I’m shaking. If I conjure up every ounce of optimism and benefit-of-the-doubt-ness I possess, I still can’t find a way to describe it as anything other than disdainful and mean-spirited. If I try to give an honest assessment of how it sounds to me, I think I have to say his words sound hateful and anti-Christ.

Here’s the scenario. John MacArthur is part of a panel discussion, and the moderator asks this: “I will say a word, and then you need to give a pithy response to that one word.” The word that MacArthur is asked to comment on?

Beth Moore.

MacArthur’s response is swift: “Go home.”

This was met by cheers and applause the audience. A roomful of people (attending the Truth Matters Conference which is celebrating 50 years of MacArthur’s ministry) cheered when a PASTOR dismissed a woman made in God’s image with a demeaning phrase. That word “pastor” means “shepherd.” This crowd joined a shepherd in collectively dunking on a woman who loves Jesus and loves Scripture and carefully does her best to promote Jesus wherever she goes.

This is absolutely disgusting. I’m seriously doing the theological equivalent of dry heaving right now. Once more I find myself pleading: Stop treating Beth Moore like garbage!

MacArthur chose to elaborate a bit: “There is no case that can be made for a woman preacher. Period. Paragraph. End of discussion.”

Huge applause.

Except that there is a case that can be made for it, and this case is made by a huge number of scholars and followers of Jesus. MacArthur is allowed to disagree with Beth Moore. Holy smokes. Of course we can disagree about something like this! But he states with absolute confidence and condescension that no one can argue otherwise. And yet I’ll stand here as a graduate of his seminary, as someone who still employs the hermeneutical tools and methods I learned at his seminary, and make a strong argument to the contrary. So many do. It’s misleading, harmful, and disgusting to claim that one’s view on this—regarding which there are between one and a handful passages (depending on which passages one considers relevant) that say anything about this issue.

Phil Johnson, one of MacArthur’s right hand men, also on the panel, chose to answer the same prompt with the word, “Narcissistic.” He said, “When I first saw her I thought, ‘This is what it looks like to preach yourself rather than Christ.'”

I cannot tell you how disgusting it is to hear someone say this. It’s so unfair and cruel. It’s wild to publicly demean a preacher of the gospel who’s not even in the room. Again, this kind of dismissive attitude and contemptuous statement is anti-Christ. All of the many many many calls for love, grace, unity, patience, gracious speech, humility, etc. are thrown out the window. All of the biblical warnings against causing division and controversy are ignored.

MacArthur went on, “Just because you have the skill to sell jewelry on the TV sales channel doesn’t mean you should be preaching. There are people who have certain hocking skills. Natural abilities to sell. They have energy and personality and all that. That doesn’t qualify you to preach.”

You can tell the audience doesn’t know how to respond to that.

And that’s where I died. Those words are so condescending. They seem calculated to wound. To dishonor. To destroy. When I close my eyes and try to picture Jesus saying words like these, I gag. But these words would be right at home in the mouths of Pharisees. I feel qualified to make that last statement because I personally have Pharisaical tendencies. I’m constantly tempted to make myself the measure of orthodoxy and to define my preferred crowd as the “true people of God.” But I know I’m wrong in this. That’s why we started this blog. Jesus is too beautiful and his mission is too important for us to be jackasses in the name of Jesus.

“I believe John MacArthur and Phil Johnson need to repent for saying to the hand, ‘I have no need of you,’ and to Beth Moore, ‘You’re narcissistic and should either stay at home or sell jewelry on TV.'”

I can’t tell you for sure that my motives are entirely pure in writing this. I’d like to believe so, and I’m honestly praying and checking my heart here. If there’s something I’m missing about this discussion, I’d love to hear it. But I believe John MacArthur and Phil Johnson need to repent for saying to the hand, “I have no need of you,” and to the foot “You’re narcissistic and should either stay at home or sell jewelry on TV.” I doubt they’ll read this, and I don’t expect to be heard favorably if they do, but this breaks my heart, and I’m confident it breaks the heart of Jesus, who gave his very life to serve and unify his church.

Mark Beuving
Mark has been serving in pastoral roles for nearly 20 years. After a decade in various teaching and administrative roles at Eternity Bible College, Mark is a pastor at Creekside Church in Rocklin, California. His books include Resonate: Enjoying God’s Gift of Music and the New York Times bestseller Multiply: Disciples Making Disciples, which he co-authored with Francis Chan.

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175 COMMENTS

    • Women aren’t called to preach. They are called to be keepers at home. They are called to other Godly spiritual gifts and ministry.

      • Oh my goodness – please tell me you have posted this comment to get a reaction….(Jack 1)
        There is absolutely NO evidence in scripture that this belief about women is true! It’s definitely NOT how Jesus saw women. It’s a man-made cultural view.

        • Kristy…let me stop laughing before I comment…. Ok. I’m back.

          “There is absolutely NO evidence in scripture that this belief about women is true! It’s definitely NOT how Jesus saw women. It’s a man-made cultural view.”

          Then explain this evidence:

          I Timothy 2:11-15: “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.”

          I Corinthians 14:34, 35: “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church”

          1st Peter 3:1-6: “Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.”

          Titus 2 3-5: The aged women likewise, that they be in behavior as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things, that they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

          1 Peter 3:1-2: Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.

          The ONLY way you could refute this EVIDENCE is to say God’s word is not accurate, or someone else got it wrong when penning it. I guess the Holy Spirit messed up when inspiring the men who did jot it all down as the spirit dictated? Now that would be calling God a liar. Because He said that the Holy Spirit did that. Sorry, but that’s the way it is. All else is…REBELLION.

      • Amen brother. But rebellion is the order of the day. They have no idea what they are doing and the consequences. Yet the bible is perfectly clear on this matter. Sad indeed.

      • Really ? Jesus brought intelligent women with him when he travelled, he had respect for women, not like some very wealthy pastors who dont practice what they preach and who show disdain for women.
        JESUS loved women.
        Women are equal intellectually to men, they bring a feminine touch to Gods word.
        Some women are happy to be at home and thats fine but don’t knock women who are brave and womanly and love God and want to tell thee world about him.

    • Women are not called to preach. Beth needs to go home and Rebekah, you need to stop trying to reconcile feminism into Christianity. They are polar opposites. There is no defense for what Beth Moore is doing.

      • “Women are not called to preach.”
        Acts 18:26 “He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately.”
        Acts 21:9 “He (Phillip) had four unmarried daughters who prophesied.”
        2 Timothy 4:24-26 “And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth.”
        Acts 10:42 “He commanded us (the crowd) to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.”
        Romans 16:7 “Greet Andronicus and Junia (a woman), my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.”
        Romans 16:2 “I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me.”
        The word for “benefactor” is “prostatis,” which means, “female guardian, protector, patroness.” The word denotes leadership and presiding over.

        Paul, you are cherrypicking Scripture. There are many instances where women preach. I can think of more references in the Old Testament.
        “There is no defense for what beth Moore is doing.” I’m assuming you are referring to the act of preaching. But there is a defense. There are many scholars who believe that the Bible doesn’t restrict women from preaching. I suggest you do some more research, as you clearly have either not read all of the Bible or ignore parts of it to hold on to your “women can’t preach” doctrine.

          • Grow up, Jack. How many souls have you saved? Or is putting people down on random blogs your version of “witnessing”? I weep for the souls who’ve encountered your foolishness.

        • “Jackasses”? Is this what you call fellow brothers and sisters in Christ that hold to the Biblical belief that is expressed in no uncertain terms in 1 Corinthians 14:34 :
          (“The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.”)?

          • Hi Leo,

            I won’t speak for Joshua, but I’ll explain from my angle. We started this site with the primary intention of calling ourselves jackasses when we stop walking in the ways of Jesus and the fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, and self control) and instead start walking in the ways of self-certainty, eagerness to divide, and lack of humility. If you’re interested in seeing what the concept is about, you can see that here: https://jackasstheology.com/2019/01/02/what-is-jackass-theology

          • You clearly don’t understand context…..go and do some research on WHY Paul is saying this to this specific church.

    • Hi Mark, I was in the first class of the Master’s Seminary. Maybe you struggled in the Pastoral Epistles. I hope you enjoyed your 3 min of fame. Beth does not preach the Historical Christianity Gospel. Better reread ….The Gospel According to Jesus.

      • Hi Jim.

        That’s pretty cool that you were in the first TMS class. I assure you that I’ve gained no fame from this or anything I’ve done. You and I both know that fame is not the reason to speak the truth when a brother is in sin. I love the pastoral epistles, and that’s actually a great way of connecting to what I’m trying to say here. Paul urges an adherence to and defense of sound doctrine. I believe John MacAthur values this as well. But look at the way Paul describes those who “teach a different doctrine and do not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ that accords with godliness.” He says that person “has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain” (1 Tim. 6:4–5). I’m asking you a simple question. You can agree with Dr. MacAthur’s theology on women in the church, but do you think the way he expressed his views towards Beth Moore exhibited love and grace and truth, or might words like “slander” and “friction” be better descriptors? Or to dig further into the pastorals, do you think Dr. MacAthur was obeying Paul’s command to “pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness” (v. 11)? To me, saying “Go home and hawk jewelry rather than talking about Jesus to people who want to hear” to the jeers of the crowd felt like the opposite of godliness, love, and gentleness. You’re welcome to disagree, of course, but I’d ask you to refrain from accusing me of struggling in school or pursuing fame as I do my utmost to be faithful to the teaching of Scripture.

        • Hi Mark

          I find it interesting that you are way more disdainful of John McA than he was of Beth Moore. Log and splinter come to mind. All he said was “go home” whereas you have said “This is absolutely disgusting. I’m seriously doing the theological equivalent of dry heaving right now.”

          Your reaction is seriously over the top. Beth Moore is a complete heretic and yet you find 2 words from John Mac Arthur so unbelievably offensive. Very strange.

          Your motives are definitely not pure in your writing. What was the point of this article, other than to shame John and cause dissension? Examine them and take them to the Lord. John is a true brother in Christ.

          • Hi Michelle,

            I think you’ve probably got a point, though I’m discouraged by your casual dismissal of Beth Moore as a complete heretic, and I think you’re also being intentionally reductionistic by saying that I am responding to “two words” from MacArthur (you can see more words from him in this article and also the tone and implications of his statement are clearer than you’re implying). But to your point, I wrote this follow up, which you might find more encouraging. Basically, it’s me agreeing with you I have a log in my eye and that my motives are definitely not pure in my writing.

            https://jackasstheology.com/2019/12/04/you-cant-write-about-jackassery-without-being-a-jackass/

            As a simple request, I ask you to extend the same courtesy to Beth Moore that you extend to Dr. MacArthur (I agree that he’s a brother in Christ). To slightly adapt your words here, would you please ask yourself: “What was the point of John MacArthur’s statements or of your denunciation of Beth Moore as a complete heretic, other than to shame Beth and cause dissension? Examine them and take them to the Lord. Beth is a true sister in Christ.”

    • No woman is called to be an ordained Pastor! Sharing or preaching the Bible is one thing! But, the office of Pastors, is 100% for the man! Scripture is 100% clear on this! 1 Timothy 3:1 says the “bishop” must he the “HUSBAND” (A MAN) of, one wife!”
      A man! Not a woman! It is that clear!

    • GUEST?…YOU are in rebellion. Read scriptures below and tell us they don’t mean what God plainly says. Go ahead. Your arguments are worn out. It is called REBELLION. Satan has duped women (and men for allowing) yet again into rebelling against God’s ORDER. It does NOT matter if a woman is gifted, etc., God set His order in motion and it is to be followed. A woman’s gifts are to be used as God instructed. MEN are to lead, teach, etc., and even if you think “well they don’t, so we women will”? REBELLION is just the same. Stop the whining and read what God clearly has told mankind in how to conduct their affairs God’s way. Not our way.

      I Timothy 2:11-15: “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.”

      I Corinthians 14:34, 35: “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church”

      1st Peter 3:1-6: “Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.”

      Titus 2 3-5: The aged women likewise, that they be in behavior as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things, that they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

      1 Peter 3:1-2: Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.

      Bottom Line…BETH GO HOME!! Do what the scriptures teach. It’s called GODS WORD…..NOT Man’s.

  2. I’m disgusted alongside you, Mark. It’s deeply disturbing. It makes me want to apologize to Beth personally, expecting that these two gentlemen will not. It reminds of a piece of advice a Jesus loving friend gave me years ago, “Allow the Jesus in you to forgive the Pharisee in them.” It’s helpful for me to remember I have been on both sides of this wounding.

    • Well said, Steph. I have been on both sides of the wounding. Though I’ve never been targeted for this kind of thing like many women in general or like Beth Moore in particular.

    • idk but what they did was kinda like “being proud of themselves” when in fact God was the one who speaks for them. God uses them. it feels like theyre the one being honored and not the Lord.

    • Proverbs 14:12 – “There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof is the ways of death.”

      Julie…the same rebellion that Eve fell victim to along with Adam’s consent, is this very same cancer that has infected the Body of Christ. Women being thrust into areas of authority God expressly forbade, and for good reason. If you read the word as it is written you should have zero doubt of women not being ordained as ministers and/or teaching from the pulpit. Unfortunately, most want to explain this away with modern excuses of why God did not mean what He said. Same for homosexuality. Bible is more than clear on that subject, yet we act as if God did not mean “abomination”. How is it Julie you and some others agree with the author of this article? The author is one of those men that wants praise from women and those like-minded. The modern Christian. Just like the world thinks. Feministic roots. Typical Satanic tactics. Man is easy prey when not grounded in simple truth as the bible is clear about regarding this subject. No mystery. Just women want their way. It’s called Rebellion. The world has taught that foul family destroying doctrine of men are dumb, women rule. Now the Body of Christ has bought into it as well. “Men won’t lead, so we will”. Let’s face it, women want to be famous, feel powerful, etc., and be praised like anyone would in the world. And in this case…within the ‘Church’. Victims of Lucifers assault on all things concerning God’s Order. Men are afraid to speak out against it lest they get called all manner of names. “ism’s”. “ist’s”., etc. Accusations. Who is the “Accuser” Yes? A very clever devilish tactic. It is brilliant admittedly, yet foul. You praising this ridiculous effeminate article are no better. I suggest you ask the Lord what is the real truth in these matters. That would be wise. And FORGET what I say, any commentor here says, and any famous pastor or the author of this article says (Mark B.), and read the scripture of a woman’s role in God’s order. Most will justify everything with other out of context, unrelated scriptures to support their drivel, but God’s word is 100% accurate and you can trust it. None of these commentators is God. I’m not either. Use the KJV while you’re at it. Report back your findings. Thx. Take care.

  4. Way to go Mark! This recording makes my skin crawl. Are women not allowed to teach other women?! What about Titus 2? It’s such an unloving and belittling tone they all had it makes me so sad. Are women now allowed to be apart of the body of Christ and use their gifts and talents? Was not a prostitute commended in the Hall of Faith in Hebrews?

  8. Does John M believe that he is faithfully and literally applying “…treat them like an unbeliever…?” He is surely grasping at the treatment of false prophets of old, and carrying out his non-literal (ironic) application of “stoning the false teacher.” So he arrogantly judges our sister as either unbeliever or false teacher, when even Jesus declared he didn’t come to judge, but save. And Paul, who won’t even judge himself, much less the servant of another. And yes, rejoiced when the gospel was preached by no-matter-who. Better yet, has he exempted himself from the literal command to “…honor all people…?” I too am frightened by the outcomes, the influence, as evidenced in audience response. It is the followers of strong teachers who take even godly teaching to extremes. I shiver to think to what Pharisaical levels his followers will now freely and vigorously sink. “Better,” Jesus said, “…a millstone be hung around his neck than that [John, who I am still holding out to be my brother, but barely,] cause any one of these little ones to stumble.” Yet thousands stumbled in our hearing. “But Lord, we preached in your name!” I can hear John crying out on that day. And my heart aches. And the Lord will say on that day, “I never knew you.” Who am I to do anything but tremble at the possibility that I may one day hear such words for my own unfaithfulness? But when the affront of pride slides so easily from his untamed tongue of fire, and then is shamelessly affirmed, and so heartily, by his stage-sharing-so-called-brothers, I am left to grieve, to weep, and to beg for this man’s soul.

  9. I have never been comfortable with John MacArthur, but many people close to me are. Many seem to take his word and his approach as the gospel truth, people I love who love Jesus. My discomfort with his ministry has been an uninformed kind of gut reaction type of discomfort. So, I’ve tried to have little to say about him, his church or his opinions. That’s over. I think that MacArthur and his followers believe in the sanctity of God’s word, and hold a high view of the standards set forth in scripture. I truly believe that. The problem is that they have their own interpretation, and seem to leave no room for those who, while seeking the Lord and listening to the prompting of the Holy Spirit, have landed elsewhere. In villanizing alternate points of view, MacArthur has lost sight of one of the two greatest calls Jesus puts on our lives…love your neighbor. Not love your neighbor when her theology lines up exactly with yours…..for goodness sake, Jesus metaphor in explaining this simple truth used a Samaritan.

    I have been wrestling with the teaching from 1 Timothy which seems to address women and their role in leadership. To say there is can be no case that can be made for a woman preacher is ridiculous. Setting up camps on alternate sides of incredibly nuanced issues wherein each side cannot hear (much less love) one another is foolish in any situation. In the church it is heartbreaking.

    I’m having a hard time loving those I see as intolerant Pharisees right now. The call on my life is to see them as deceived and not divide further. Pray for me, I’m in a bad place on this one seeing villains and agents of evil. Perhaps those I see as intolerant are the neighbors I must love well.

    • I also struggle with John MacArthur. Some of his sermons really hit it out of the park and I have gotten a lot of help from them. In others he comes across as arrogant and egotistical and as you said intolerant of others views. In some cases his interpretation of a just a few verses appear to go way too far. As a professor he reminds me of a certain type of student. They are the students that study the text (chemistry) from front to back and can do any problem from the book that you give them. They are excellent students. However they never become the exceptional student who can put ideas together and take it to the next level. Often they are angry because they do not get the accolades they think they desire. The truly exceptional students do not exhibit arrogance because they are confident and want to know the truth therefore they are open to discussion and criticism. They see this as a way of progressing in their field. Often MacArthur does come across like the legalist Pharisees that he so often (and with disdain) criticizes.

  10. Mark, can you link or site your references for the scripture that refutes his claim that “There is no case that can be made for a woman preacher. Period. Paragraph. End of discussion.”?

    Emotionally, I’m with you, that this is disgusting. I’d like to see a counter to his argument from scripture though. You said twice that you (along with a “huge number of scholars and followers of Jesus”) can make that argument.

    Again, I’m with you on this.

    • Hey Dan! Yeah, thanks for asking. I’d cite verses like Gal. 3:28: “there is neither male nor female, all are one in Christ.” Or Rom. 16:2, where Paul honors Junia, a woman who seems to have been an apostle (though her name was changed in many Greek composite texts and English translations to a made up male form of the name around the time of the reformation). I’d also cite the same verses used to forbid women preaching, like 1 Tim 2:12, because it’s all about reading them in context. That same passage forbids braided hair or jewelry, but we all instinctively know Paul is not forbidding this for all women everywhere. He was dealing with a specific situation. It shouldn’t be considered invalid to see the same dynamics in play when Paul forbids women’s preaching a few verses later. Same with 1 Cor 11 and 14. Paul expresses says that women should prophecy (something MacArthur forbids), but Paul also appeals to the creation account to say that women must wear head coverings. Again, we all agree he’s addressing a specific situation (no one agrees on exactly what).

      As for articles, here are a couple of short ones, though it’s hard to dig into the culture in such a short space.

      Here’s one by NT Wright: http://www2.cbeinternational.org/CBE_InfoPack/pdf_files/wright_biblical_basis.pdf
      And one by Scot McKnight: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2013/09/25/women-in-the-early-church/

      If you want a killer podcast that will challenge some of our prevalent assumptions about women in ministry, this one does a great job in giving an overview. Start with this episode and keep listening to the subsequent episodes in the series: https://overcast.fm/+NGLPe0VE8

      If you want a good book on it, I’d recommend Alice Matthew’s “Gender Roles and the People of God,” Andrew Bartlett’s “Men and Women in Christ,” Lucy Peppiatt’s “Reduscovering Scripture’s Vision for Women,” or the “Two Views on Women in Ministry” book edited by Beck. If you want a short, sweet ebook on the Junia apostle thing, Scott McKnight’s “Junia Is Not Alone” is powerful. Another good short one is Michael Bird’s “Bourgeois Babes, Bossy Wives, and Bobby Haircuts.”

      This is just the tip of the iceberg. Plus, I’d love to sit down and chat about this if you want. As I said, I’m not trying to say complementarians are idiots, I think it’s a valid interpretation of some of those passages, I’m just saying that’s it’s dishonest of MacArthur to say you can’t make a case otherwise.

      • Mark what about 1 Tim 2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. This is why a woman is not supposed to preach. It isn’t about the times nor customs as how long was creation from when Paul wrote this to Timothy? Also Beth Moore aside from all this is joining with Joyce Meyer? Have you seen her on the Joyce Meyer Show? Joyce Meyer is proven heretic and Beth cant say enough good about her. Also Joel Olstine she is very close with and has gone to his church. Are we not supposed to call out false teachers, not join them?

        • Hi Troy!Thanks for the great questions.

          With regards to 1 Tim. 2:14, it sounds to me like your reading is that Paul forbids women to preach because they are less intelligent than men. I don’t want to mischaracterize you, is that what you’re saying? I was taught that many years ago; it used to be a popular interpretation, but few scholars hold that view now. It is, no doubt, a complicated passage, but there are many ways to dig into Paul’s argument there and try to make sense of it. I’d recommend checking out some of the resources I’ve linked to in other comments if you want to see some of the possibilities. Just like you, I want to understand what the text actually means rather than choosing the interpretation that best fits my agenda, which is why I continue to study it. I used to be very convinced with exactly the logic you’re using: Paul ties it to creation, not culture, so he’s laying down a universal principle. That seems pretty airtight. But it’s actually not as open and shut as it sounds. Take 1 Corinthians 11, for example. Paul very clearly argues from the order of creation (he’s doing the exact same thing—tying his argument to the creation account) that women need to wear head coverings when they prophesy in church. I don’t know your context, but I’m guessing your church doesn’t make women wear head coverings (on the grounds that this was cultural) and that your church doesn’t allow women to prophesy in church (that’s an assumption based on your conservative stance, forgive me if I’m wrong in assuming that). So in 1 Cor. 11, most conservative scholars are willing to say, “yes, Paul ties his argument to creation, BUT head coverings is cultural so Paul’s argument IS NOT a universal principle,” and then when they get to 1 Tim 2, they say “Paul ties his argument to creation, SO forbidding women to teach IS a universal principle.” I’m not expecting to convince you here, but I hope you can see that it’s a little more complex than it might seem at first glance.

          And with regard to Beth Moore being friendly with people you consider heretical, I’d encourage you to use a little more discernment. If it’s helpful, here’s something I wrote about similar accusations made against Francis Chan: https://jackasstheology.com/2019/03/15/farewell-francis-chan/

          • Mark thank you for your reply.
            You as a Pastor, are leading the flock. You CAN NOT allow wolves among the sheep and say it is in love and you are loving the wolves!
            As a leader of the flock you cant afford it. You have given up your feelings in exchange for the Word of God. You have to call out false teaching and warn the flock to do the same 2nd John. You don’t know anything about Todd White? Really? Man you better find out because he and a lot of others are preparing your flock for the slaughter. Do you really not know we are in a war? We are soldiers man and this is a war! You better watch Frances Chan talking at IHOP and waiting for a word from God from Mike Bickle. Do you know who he is? You should look into it. Part of your job is to look into it! The bible has hard lines. you don’t have to study Galatians 1:9 to know if someone brings another gospel they are accursed. When Paul says he doesn’t allow a woman to preach because she was deceived that is exactly what he means. My wife is the one who made me look at this. Women are in NO way less than men as we are all equal, Peter says a weaker vessel 1Peter 3:7 . They do have different roles because of the fall, period. Different roles in this war. We have to have different roles Mark. We are not all called for the same work. Does the Word not tell us to separate from false teachers? You don’t know who they are nor care because you don’t want to be unloving? Is that not love when Jesus warned the sinners as he hung out with them? Some of them heard and were saved, others left and were upset. The Truth is what is important. The Truth man! It hurts some times even smells like death to a lot of people , Corinthians. When the Truth smells like death you cant change the result of that.

          • Hey Troy,

            Again, thanks for a gracious response. Man, I really resonate with what you’re saying. I have yet to have a congregant get into the teaching of Todd White or Mike Bickle, and I believe it would be irresponsible and fall into the category of “devoting myself to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith” if I were to spend all of my time researching various false teachers my flock might encounter at some point. I know a lot of pastors have devoted their ministries to this, but I need to stick to the Word of God and caring for the flock.

            As a gentle pushback that I believe is in the spirit of the warnings you’re wisely giving here, are you sure your definition of “wolf” is correct? We tend to define “wolf” as “someone who teaches a different doctrine than the ones I consider to be most important,” but maybe that’s only a small part of it? Jesus warned us to look a tree and judge it by its fruit. To me, that seems to be a warning against people who’s lives, words, and ministries stir up division and slander and hatred rather than the fruit of the Spirit. Does that make sense? One way to stir up slander and hatred is to speak untruths about Jesus. I agree with that, and it sounds to me like that would be your primary definition. But another way is to quote verses from the Bible in ways that tear down people’s humanity and dignity and disregards that people are made in God’s image. I promise I’m not trying to get you to read everything we’ve written here, but here are a few places I’ve spelled out my thought process a bit more:

            – This one called “Our Wicked Tendency to Use the Bible to Oppress,” which deals with our tendency to use God’s life-giving words of truth as a weapon: https://jackasstheology.com/2019/07/03/our-wicked-tendency-to-use-the-bible-to-oppress/
            – This one called “Stop Equating Peacemaking with Compromising,” where I think I’m addressing the very thing you’re worried about here: https://jackasstheology.com/2019/07/09/stop-equating-peacemaking-with-compromising/
            – This one called there “Heresy of Unity,” where I insist that I’m taking the Bible seriously and literally when I choose to love a perceived enemy rather than bashing them: https://jackasstheology.com/2019/08/23/the-heresy-of-unity/
            – And then maybe this one called “Watchdog Theology,” where I try to explain why the “find everyone who disagrees and throw them out” approach is unbiblical: https://jackasstheology.com/2019/03/28/watchdog-theology/

            Truly, I’m thankful for your gracious engagement here. I believe we’re both seeking to do our best to be faithful to Jesus, His Word, and the calling He’s placed on our lives.

          • Thanks Mark for your quick reply. I appreciate your views and thoughts here. I am first hand seeing what loving without the salt of truth does to my kids, church friends and family. It is so easy to love and go along with things. I can be a great guy and a friend to everyone. It comes at a price, that price is truth. When you write an article defending Beth Moore and Francis Chan you have to dig a bit into the truth and what they are doing. Watch Beth Moore doting over Joyce Meyer on you tube. Watch Francis Chan doting over IHOP and MIke Bickle. After you see this you have to hang your head. You dont have to devote your ministry to this you do have to know the truth before you tell the world these guys are legit and are ok. Do you not? What happened to not inviting these people into your home? Calling out the heresy? That is in the bible too man you have to take it all right? Thank you for your time with this. Division is not a bad thing if it is done by the Spirit and for Truth! You cant join with the dark.

          • HI Mark I am reading through some of your articles. You mention Rick Warren and not calling him a false teacher. Would not Galatians 1-9 and him partnering with the Catholic Church cause him to be accursed? As having a Catholic Priest speaking at his 2019 Saddleback Pastors convention? His Ecumenical ways would have to cause division. A Creekside Sheep commented on this article with a lot of eloquence and wisdom, Would you consider Rick Warren table unity but not Sunday unity? And if so your flock should be warned of him and the Catholic Church would you say? I watched Rick Warren address a catholic audience and no gospel was shared. Just how much he loved them as brothers and sisters.

          • Troy,

            The example of Rick Warren is really tough for me to get behind. I can understand choosing to disagree with or even argue against some of his specific decisions and positions, but to classify him as an enemy of the gospel has me scratching my head. To me, it seems like that would be saying, “to be considered a faithful Christian, you must agree with me about certain specifics regarding the catholic church, certain specifics regarding the ecumenical movement, etc.” The litmus test for who’s a faithful Christian becomes my own doctrinal convictions. To me, that seems to be going well beyond Scripture (1 Cor. 4:6).

    • Alongside Mark’s very helpful recommendations, let me add “Discovering Biblical Equality: Complimentarity Without Hierarchy,” which includes contributions from a couple dozen evangelical scholars. Also along with the apostle Junia, take a closer look at the ministries of the prophet Huldah (2 Kings 23) and the deacon Phoebe (Romans 16). For a deep dive into evangelical egalitarianism, I recommend the website for Christians for Biblical Equality and their scholarly journal The Priscilla Papers.

      In my opinion, both complementarians and egalitarians are able to make a strong Scriptural case for their views. I think this issue is a difficult one and not something we should divide over. But regardless of one’s views on women in ministry, I think the way Johnny Mac spoke about Beth Moore was demeaning and appalling. It was especially perplexing to me in light of the fact that Beth Moore’s ministry has been almost exclusively to women and focused on helping them learn, memorize and apply the Word.

      • Oh this just too sweet. Has anyone asked how it is possible that inerrant scripture, THE one true word, can have such opposite interpretations. I mean really, IT almost seems as if the interpretations are really determined by what the world believes about gender roles at the time these interpretations are made. Complementarian/Egalitarian positions are really based on what is acceptable worldly standards at the time.

        Early “Christians” wouldn’t even recognize you followers. Too funny.

  11. I too have had a gut feeling hesitancy about macarthur. There is a cultish control and ever so stuffed-shirt smugness in the opinions I hear him express. This however is an unprecedented low which is dripping with envy. I think it may come down to this…Beth Moore is actually better than them at it…and they know it… and as Corporal Jones would have said to Capt Manwaring, ‘they don’t like it up them sir’!

    • You have just spoken much the exact way I could describe MacArthur. He plainly discredits other Christians, and strongly implies that tongue talking Pentecostals are a cult. Anyone who disagrees with him, he undermines. I find him obnoxiously rude, and yes, smug.

  12. After having recently come out of a decades long abusive, patriarchal marriage to a man who has the same opinions of women and their ‘place’ in the church, I am certain this is grievous to Jesus. The mocking and laughing and dismissing of Beth, and all women, by Dr. MacArthur is disgusting and reprehensible, but not new. It is what I lived with for many years. This wrong theology was the bedrock of the toxic church I went to, taught from the pulpit and adhered to by so many (men) in the congregation. It’s been propagated for a very long time. There are countless wounded women who have left the church (more importantly their faith) because of this belief system. Shame on you, Dr. MacArthur. Thank you for writing about this. It’s about time. #endabusetowomeninthechurch

    • Julie, I too ended an abusive marriage just as you described, heavily influenced by the kind of thinking JM and company espouse. There is something so dehumanizing to be treated with contempt and derision, every single day, and have it dressed up like it’s God’s will. I am with you that this is grievous to Jesus.

      The church has got to wake up to this. It’s starting. But there’s so much ground to cover. There’s a community of us women of faith dealing with devastation from abuse called Flying Free. If you haven’t heard of it, it may be a useful resource to you. Flyingfreenow.com .

      Grace and peace to you Julie!

      • Rachel,

        Thank you for your kind words. I have been a member of Natalie’s group for over a year, which led me to other very helpful resources and support groups.

        I have much to say on the subject of how women are treated in the church, but this is not the forum. I do see the church starting to heed the wake up call, but like you said, there is so much ground to cover. The John MacArthur video just reaffirms that change must start ‘at the top’. The hardest thing for me to wrap my brain around is how many women are leaving, not simply the church, but their faith. Countless women have walked away from God because they have been blamed, shamed, and abandoned by the church.

        Grace and peace to you My Sister.

  13. My heart hurts. I will pray for all involved- hurt and even mislead by his words. One must teach love and forgiveness as well as hell and brimstone. I simply love Beth Moore and its because of her teaching I became more faithful in my own walk.

  14. Thank you for writing this. I’m absolutely heart-broken to learn of this behavior from a pastor, from all the men in the room that participated in the “joke”. The fact that the panelist selected her name as the first word for a response to isn’t lost in this either. Perhaps he knew it would get a reaction. So I’m asking myself…was this cruelty to Beth Moore simply for their own gain in laughs and applause? It’s despicable. I learned so many solid, biblical truths from the very meaty bible studies written by Beth Moore. Studies that didn’t come without a price to her while writing them. Her studies challenged the truths I held, that should have been challenged – and greatly deepened my relationship with Jesus.

  15. I have lost a lot of respect for these men. John MacArthur was right— he was set up. I am not supportive of women preachers at all, but to slander her and accuse her on many levels is narcissistic and phariseical. To hear people praising a preacher for a sermon public ally and saying “way to go” also seems very out of place. Isn’t it God who deserves that glory. The spirit and arrogance here is very uncomely for a child of God let alone a preacher of God’s Word. It’s offensive!

    • “…To slander her and accuse her on many levels is narcissistic and pharisaical.” It’s really ironic that one of the pastors there calls Beth Moore “narcissistic!”All the while he’s mocking her and demeaning her.

  16. Thank you, Mark, for writing this. If it breaks my heart, how much more pain must God feel, watching his children be cruel to their siblings?

  17. Wait, you went to Master’s and MacArthur’s position on women in the pulpit shocks you? Also, context is key here. People are using an out of context quote from a Q&A session to falsely claim that MacArthur and Johnson are somehow misogynistic. It’s ridiculous and baseless. Those men are simply upholding the biblical reality that qualified men are to be elders in the church. Go ahead, try to make the biblical case that women are to be elders in the church. You won’t be able to from the scriptural text. Why doesn’t the Bible provide a list of qualification for women elders like it does for men?

    • Finally, Zach, someone speaks the truth. Thank you! MacArthur is being undeservingly crucified for an out of context soundbite. Shame on us! Satan won today by enticing God’s people to malign a faithful preacher of the word.

    • Hi Zach.

      I did indeed go to Master’s, and no, Dr. MacArthur’s position on women in the pulpit does not shock me. I shared his view for many years. But we both know that wasn’t what my article was about. I said clearly that MacArthur is allowed to disagree with Beth Moore on this. That wasn’t may issue. I have two issues with what he said. The first is the mean way in which he said what he said. If you think I’m misreading this and MacArthur’s comment was meant to address something he disagreed with in such a way that his speech was full of grace and seasoned with salt and trying to uplift a woman that Jesus died to save and has been using powerfully for his kingdom, then please help me see what I’m missing. I’ve actually heard Dr. MacArthur lovingly and gently correct people many times. This was not that. I’m not positive, but I feel like Phil Johnson’s accusations might be more offensive to me—Dr. MacArthur could have corrected that but opted to give the jewelry hocking insult instead. I’m honestly confused that you say this is “ridiculous and baseless.” Zach, please feel free to defend complementarianism. I can make a strong case for this view as well. But are you actually wanting to defend the tone of these comments? In theory, we should be able to agree that neither of these men is perfect and that sometimes they’ll say and do things that dishonor God. This is frequently the case with me. Is this a time to double down on the supposed God-honoring nature of the kind of tone they used and the specific things they said? I also don’t agree that this is out of context. The clip shows their response to the question. MacArthur joked he was being set up. He knew it was a tricky situation. The moderator warned him to consider before he responded. And this is what he chose to say. For someone as comfortable speaking in front of large audiences (both in attendance and via audio—the event was celebrating 50 years of him preaching prolifically and speaking that preaching via radio), I believe he knows how to say things tactfully if he wants to.

      And regarding your doubling down on MacArthur’s statement that you can’t make a case from the scriptural text, I’m struggling not to see your statement as disingenuous. Zach, have you read any of the many books and articles from Bible-believing egalitarians? Do you know any egalitarians and have you listened to any of their arguments? Because the thing is they DO make a biblical case and they DO make that case from the scriptural text. I’m pretty sure what you’re meaning to say is, “You won’t be able to make a Scriptural case that I will see as valid.” And that’s fair. But it’s wrong to say that it can’t be made. That’s my second issue with MacArthur’s answer.

      As for your last comment, I don’t believe 1 Timothy 3 is meant to be a list of qualifications for male elders. It’s just talking about the qualifications for an elder. Period. It uses the phrase “husband of one wife,” and there are disagreements here, but I don’t believe Paul is trying to speak exclusively of men any more than he is trying to refer to only men when he frequently uses the term “brothers.” It’s poor exegesis to stop at how a phrase sounds to us in English. There are great books you an read on this that dig into the biblical context, language, culture, and flow of argument. But even on a very surface level, Paul also says in following verses that deacons must be “the husband of one wife,” and yet we have examples of female deacons (Rom. 16:2). I’m not saying you have to agree with me, I’m simply saying that it’s wrong and unhelpful of Dr. MacArthur to pretend that no one can read the Scripture and come to a different conclusion than he does.

      • Yes, in context the tone and the content were just fine. Beth Moore is a very public figure. She’s not just some woman who happens to have questionable theology in this area. She is a very popular leader with a strong following and a large platform. Given her position and her recent willingness to embrace the social justice/critical theory movement, criticism is not only appropriate, but biblically demanded. Critical theory is unbiblical and divisive at its core. It offers no hope of reconciliation or redemption. It has nothing to do with the Gospel of Christ but finds it origins in secular humanism. It has also been shown that Moore has selectively edited some her previous work to remove references to a biblical stance on the issue of homosexuality. She is clearly heading in a dangerous direction. And she isn’t alone. Other significant contingents within the Southern Baptist Convention have embraced critical theory and “wokeness”, including Moore’s good friend and current SBC president, J.D. Greear. It has also become increasingly popular in these same circles to question biblical complementarity and the very clear biblical teaching of the exclusivity of men in pastoral leadership (It would not be surprising at this point to see Moore become the next president of the SBC). However, the popular arguments in favor of placing women in pastoral roles are not coming from a careful and consistent examination of the scriptural texts. Instead, there are appeals to all kinds of extra biblical sources, popular social sentiment, feminism, and a myriad of teachers who eisegetically read their own man-centered notions of gender roles into the biblical texts. Understanding that this Q&A session took place at a conference addressing the subject of Biblical Sufficiency, the strong denunciation of someone who has a pattern of undermining that sufficiency, is completely appropriate, whether it is a man or woman.

        On a related note, I want to ask you, is Scripture really sufficient for faith and practice? You stated that you’ve changed your understanding regarding what the Bible says about men and women in pastoral leadership? But what was the catalyst? Did that change of mind come primarily from a careful study of the scriptures themselves, or was it perhaps influenced more strongly by current cultural and social sentiments/conventions? Again, there isn’t any place in the scripture from which the positive case for women as pastors/elders can be made. We shouldn’t build doctrine on arguments from silence. And you assert that when Paul talk about the qualification for elders he’s being ambiguous about gender, is contextually absurd. It’s obvious that he should be the “husband of one wife” clearly assumes Paul is talking about men in that context.

        To the issue of who is or who isn’t being disingenuous – taking an objective view of the video clip in question, especially considering the subject matter of the conference, the format, the men involved, and your own personal insight – I still find it hard to believe that your “disgust” wasn’t driven more by how you feel the out-of-context quote hit the ears of the uninformed masses, than what was actually expressed by those men.

        • Hi Zach,

          Yes, I believe in the sufficiency of Scripture. I read constantly, so after reading more and more research on the passages in question, I eventually reached a tipping point. If you’d like to be introduced to some egalitarian scholars who believe in inerrancy and sufficiency and are doing exegetical work on this issues (sounds like you haven’t been pointed to any resources like this yet), I’d encourage you to read: Alice Matthew’s “Gender Roles and the People of God,” Andrew Bartlett’s “Men and Women in Christ,” Lucy Peppiatt’s “Reduscovering Scripture’s Vision for Women,” or the “Two Views on Women in Ministry” book edited by Beck. If you want a short, sweet ebook on the Junia apostle thing, Scott McKnight’s “Junia Is Not Alone” is powerful. Another good short one is Michael Bird’s “Bourgeois Babes, Bossy Wives, and Bobby Haircuts.”

          • Marc, your patient and thought provoking responses to Zach are further evidence of your desire to shine the light on Jesus in everything you write and say. I cannot grasp the determination of men like Zach to proclaim there is only one way to interpret scripture regarding women in leadership positions in the church. I read fear in his position; fear and a desperate sense that Jesus will not prevail unless men take the hard and immovable stance regarding his own view of scripture. I have a strong orthodoxy myself, formed over 60 years of studying the Bible commentary by Matthew Henry, the devotions of Oswald Chambers, the apologetics of C.S. Lewis, and the life of Corrie ten Boom, a family friend. I have close friends and family influenced by the same who come to different conclusions than I do. How we respond to those who have differing views is absolutely vital. Like you, I am constantly seeking to gut-check myself…are my motives pure? Am I speaking with grace and mercy? Do I desire to promote myself or am I building up the Body? When I listen, am I really seeking to hear and understand, or simply preparing my own rebuttal? These are things to consider in conversation with God before speaking or writing and I hope this will co to use throughout the rest of my life. As I re-read your article and responses to comments, I continue to believe that God is using you to speak truth in love. Again, I thank you.

          • I’m not asking for a list of books. Since you brought it up let’s try an example. Please demonstrate to me how this passage –
            “Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full[a] respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.” – is addressing anything other than the qualifications for men as elders in the church.
            You’re the one who’s had the change of mind. You claim the Bible allows for it. How can someone who has studied the Greek (presumably, based on your attending Mater’s) and knows how the language works, honestly argue that this passage is in any way ambiguous regarding gender?
            It’s very popular today to assert all kinds of things regarding what the Bible has to say on a whole host of issues, especially when historical and orthodox beliefs come into direct conflict with popular conventions and ever changing social mores. It’s much less popular (and far less common) for people to even make an attempt to backup their assertions using the source text, let alone to do without violating the principles of hermenuetical consistency or the basic rules which govern honest textual criticism.

        • “You claim the Bible allows for it. How can someone who has studied the Greek (presumably, based on your attending Mater’s) and knows how the language works, honestly argue that this passage is in any way ambiguous regarding gender?”
          Zach, he literally already answered this. He said that the Greek doesn’t say the same thing as the English translation does. Many scholars who know Greek have stated that this passage in the Greek doesn’t in and of itself restrict women from being elders (based on Greek grammar and pronouns). Even many complementarian scholars have agreed.
          It seems this pastor doesn’t desire to offer an extended response, probably because he doesn’t want to get into a heated debate, which I think is a wise choice. So he’s offered you some books to do some more research on the topic. If you are truly looking for truth, you would be open to doing more research. There are many articles online that are not 100-200 page books, but rather 5-page articles.

          • Wrong. Neither the Greek or the surrounding literary context for any of the passages in question allow for the ambiguity one would need to argue against the long held biblically orthodox position that men, and men alone, are to be elders in the church. Those who are trying to convince people otherwise, are dependent on arguments outside the text, they are not deriving their opinions from a careful exegesis of the source material.

          • Hey Zach,

            I don’t think we need to keep this going. You keep insisting that you’re not interested in considering any viewpoints but your own. That’s honestly fine with me, you’re absolutely entitled to your interpretation and I applaud you for your firm convictions. But it’s probably time to stop being surprised that there are still people in these comments who are wanting to consider views other than your own.

            I will just point out that this comment you made here is demonstrably wrong. Again, you’re entitled to your interpretation, but it’s patently false that “neither the Greek or the surrounding literary context for any of the passages in question allow for…” a non-complementarian view. It’s also completely false that “those who are trying to convince people otherwise, are dependent on arguments outside the text, they are not deriving their opinions from a careful exegesis of the source material.” Feel free to not take my offer here, but if you’d like to look into the Greek of the passages in question and/or find egalitarians grounding their arguments in careful exegesis of the relevant texts, then I encourage you to pick up a copy of “Two Views on Women in Ministry,” edited by Craig Blomberg. It presents the exegetical arguments of two complementarians and two egalitarians. What’s striking is that the world-class complementarian scholars who contributed to this volume treat their egalitarian “opponents” with grace and give dignity to their arguments and exegetical work. They disagree, but they’re not dismissive or argumentative.

            And this takes me back again to my discouragement with our interactions here. I continue to assert that I am not protesting MacArthur’s complementarian views, but rather his demeaning speech. I continue to ask you whether you approve of his tone and choice of words, but you continue to pretend that my problem is with complentarianism. It’s fine if you don’t want to engage on that topic, but that’s what my post has been about.

            I only want to uphold the truth of Ephesians 4:31–32 “Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.”

        • “Critical theory is unbiblical and divisive at its core. It offers no hope of reconciliation or redemption. It has nothing to do with the Gospel of Christ but finds it origins in secular humanism. It has also been shown that Moore has selectively edited some her previous work to remove references to a biblical stance on the issue of homosexuality. She is clearly heading in a dangerous direction. And she isn’t alone.”

          ^ That’s a criticism.

          What McArthur did was to mock and demean. Surely you can see the difference. In your comment, you’re discussing what you understand Moore to believe based on what you’ve heard and read, and what you believe she has objectively done. MacArthur and the other DudeBros were enaging in an Ad Hominem attack.

          • Wrong. It’s a cop-out. Rather than demonstrate a pro-biblical argument (he should be capable given his training and office) he deflects and appeals to extra-biblical academic sources. If it is so obvious that the bible promotes women as pastors and preachers Pastor Mark should be able to succinctly and clearly present his case from the scriptural text.

      • Not to mention the fact that women did not have more than one husband….so it did not have to be addressed. Men often had more than one wife.

  18. This situation has to be looked at in context. John MacArthur was on a stage in his own church at his own conference. The room was filled with like minded people who know very well where he stands on the issue of women in the pulpit. When the moderator said “Beth Moore” the laughs from the crowd were not mocking or rude. It was more like “oh no, we know how Pastor John feels about this topic”. And when he said “period. End of paragraph.” that was to be expected. Again, everyone in that room knows that Dr. MacArthur has his doctrinal view locked in on this issue. He is a Biblical scholar and has been a pastor for five decades. I think he has preached a few sermons on this and didn’t need to preach another in this forum. His comment about selling jewelry on TV…..I did not interpret that at all as a personal attack on Beth. He was making the bigger point that all of your gifts must be filtered through God’s framework/His word. So just because Beth is gifted with many of the talents necessary to preach, that does not mean it is permissible in God’s perfect design. If my daughter has a beautiful body, she may be able to make a lot of money modeling skimpy swimsuits, but that doesn’t line up with scripture, therefor I wouldn’t encourage it. I saw that as his overriding point. MacArthur went on to say that he is bothered by the culture creeping into the Bible, and he sees feminism creeping in here. Everyone should listen to the whole clip, and remember that he was among “family” during this discussion. Theologically, I believe he is right on. And his willingness to stand firm in the truth is refreshing. This country is on a dangerous, slippery slope falling farther and farther away from God. Nobody knows God anymore because His word is being compromised, watered down, and reshaped to our liking. Praise God for men like John MacArthur who unapologetically preach the Truth!

    • Hi Courtney!

      Thanks for commenting. What I have always loved about Dr. MacArthur is that he is willing to speak the truth even when it’s not popular. But that wasn’t my concern with his statements. I appreciate your attention to the context of the event. For me personally, I’m having a hard time coming up with any context in which this would be God-honoring speech. Again, it’s not his position, it’s the way he chose to—I think—attack someone else. I can understand what you’re saying about him being in his own church at his own conference and therefore feeling comfortable. But of course, that doesn’t make it okay. I can be in my own literal home all by myself and feeling very comfortable and still sin. It’s also interesting that the conference was celebrating 50 years of his prolific preaching ministry and of his sermons, conferences, and Q&As being distributed worldwide over the airwaves. I just don’t buy that he didn’t understand that other people would be hearing what he said.

      We can disagree of course, and I’m glad you’re looking for the best in this. One thing that would actually help me a lot is if Dr. MacArthur issued a statement clarifying what he meant or stating that he was being misunderstood. I’m sure people around him have heard of the controversy his statements have caused, and if it were me, I’d be eager to explain that I didn’t mean to hurt a beloved image bearer of God and faithful co-laborer for the gospel. I’d issue an immediate apology and explain unequivocally that I respect Beth Moore as someone who loves Jesus and has devoted her life to serving him, but that I still disagree with her convictions in this area. That’s what I’d do. I’d love to see him clarify along those lines.

    • Hi Pastor Mark,

      I find myself on the side of the debate that women should not be pastors based on my reading of scripture and have actually been considering your church. I noticed though that your denomination does not ordain women in my research. I don’t feel this is an issue we should divide over though. I did have a question though as I am considering your church, do you plan on ordaining women in the future and/or changing your church’s denomination?

      • Thanks for taking the time to respond, Tim. 
        We actually don’t have (and haven’t had) any officially ordained church leaders. That just hasn’t been important in our context, not that we’re opposed to it. The EFCA allows a lot of freedom with each church, and they’ve told us clearly that each church can have female pastors or elders, etc. if they want to, but that they themselves will only ordain men. 

  19. I’m glad to see a few people coming forward in support of the Complementarian point of view, and even in support of John MacArthur. One of the great things about this forum is that it has generally been a safe place for people to disagree. I will continue to strive to do my best to understand and empathize with folks here who disagree with me. I do empathize with MacArthur’s high view of scripture. I take incredible exception with what/‘how he expressed his point of view. I listened to the entire audio, and I can say with certainty that my disgust with the approach to Beth more does not come from a place of taking a few comments out of context.

    Courtney, I think you are right. Our country is on a dangerous course of falling further and further away from God. I’m becoming increasingly convinced that is happening because Christians don’t lead with love. The men on that stage are so convinced that they are right, that they leave no room for another interpretation. They seem more concerned with being right than they are with loving others well in the name of God. Jesus said Love God and love your neighbor. He didn’t say love God, understand the desire and will of our incomprehensible God fully and allow for no quarter for those who disagree with you, and then love others.

    The lack of charity shown to Beth Moore here makes my skin crawl. When MacArthur’s colleague Phil said Beth Moore is preaching herself rather than Christ when she says she tries to put herself in the narrative is twisting Beth Moore’s words. Talk about taking something out of context! Aren’t we all called to find the truth God is teaching us personally as we study God’s Word? No one came to her defense. If I was in the crowd when MacArthur told Beth Moore to go home, I would have booed. When she was compared to a huckster jewelery salesperson I would have booed.

    I got particularly discouraged when MacArthur took a stand against feminism. I don’t see anything wrong with a woman as a Senator, Congressman or President. No one maligns men for being power hungry when they aspire to such a role, rather we look at their character and form opinions accordingly.

    What this forum is trying to point out is that as Christians we are to be known for our love, but instead we are known for what we stand against. We love you as long as you aren’t Democrat, Feminist, LGBTQ, Socialist, Pro-Abortion, any denomination but mine….shall I go on? Seriously, if all we love are people like us who agree with us than who will love the lost?!?

    Courtney, I agree with you. Our country is moving away from God. I’m afraid it is because we have lost our calling and not because of our lack of regard for the truth of scripture. Our calling is to seek the lost, not reject others who don’t agree with us.

    John MacArthur said there is no room for an alternate view of women’s role in the church….period, end of sentence. I disagree. I’ll leave you with these two questions which gave me the room I needed to begin investigating the complementarian point of view:
    Our God is unchanging and only good. I’m sure we all agree. Why would our unchanging God use women in leadership (Miriam, Deborah etc.) and then decide it’s a bad idea? If Paul was forbidding women as leaders for all places and all times, why would he work so closely alongside women leaders (Priscilla, Junia)?

    • We are falling away because love has grown cold. Thank you for posting this. It was a sad and grievous ugly tho g forJohn Mac to say so publicly. But. It sure brought about what is in the depths of Beth Moore’s heart; gracious kind words, inclusive words in response, not reaction, to such a arrogant self righteous public scorning.

  20. One more thing about the reaction to all this – the term repentance is being tossed around quite a bit here – but what sin are MacArthur and Johnson guilty of? As I recall, Jesus, Paul, and the other writers of the NT all used strong language when addressing unbiblical or heretical teaching. Should they have repented? Additionally, Beth Moore is a public teacher with a large following, she is not a member of MacArthur’s flock. Given her notoriety, position and responsibilities, his response in addressing her error should look different than if he were addressing a member of his flock who was in error. Again, there is biblical precedent for this.

    • Uncharitable speech. If you want a specific passage, 1 Timothy 6:4 is a decent summary: “Slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction.”

      • In 1 Timothy 6, Paul is warning Timothy about false teachers…..”false teachers with an unhealthy craving for controversy.” Wow, very interesting that you are putting John MacArthur in that category.

        • Hi Courtney. I didn’t call John MacArthur a false teacher, I said he was exhibiting slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction. As you said, since Paul says those things are characteristic of false teachers is good reasons to avoid such things.

          • By referencing a verse that is 100% referring to false teachers, it can be implied that you were calling him one. Please choose another verse to call out his sin. Being a pastor, surely you know that reading/quoting the Bible out of context leads to much heresy. And remember Ecclesiastes 7:20…”Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.” John MacArthur sinned. Period. End of paragraph. Instead of giving him a call or an edifying email, all of the Monday morning quarterback “christian” bloggers decided to put up flashy graphics and use words like “disgusting” to encourage us all to be better. John MacArthur was crucified in the public square for “uncharitable speech”. Elders are worthy of double honor, however, he was given a good spanking and zero grace. You all splattered his misstep worldwide over the internet….causing division among believers and doubt among unbelievers. If there is any repentance to be happening here, you may want to look in the mirror.

          • Courtney, I see this differently. However, I do agree with you on your greater points….we need to lead with grace, we need to promote unity in the church, and we need to find ways to love people well even when we disagree with what they have done. This is as true for John MacArthur as it is for Beth Moore.

            That said, MacArthur is a leader in his church, speaking in a public forum, and the interview was posted as a proclamation for all to hear. Also, MacArthur is presenting his position as irrefutable, and as obviously God’s perspective on the matter. If the comments were made to me in private, I would object in private. I believe he sullied the Gospel for all to see, and so I must also speak for all to see. I have not spent my life building the kind of platform that MacArthur has, and my voice will be heard by few. His has been heard by millions.

            I do appreciate that you recognized his behavior as sin, and that’s the issue I see. I don’t agree with his “I’m right and you all must agree or be labeled heretic” stance, but I know he didn’t come to his position lightly. That is not the issue. I believe that if we allow poor treatment of women by the church and church leaders to be seen as acceptable, we will lose our chance to preach the Gospel to many who need it.

            I know you don’t appreciate the verses Mark cited in his critique of the interview. I hold that the Bible is replete with admonitions against the behavior that has sparked the controversy. Mark already cited Colossians 4:6 “Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.”

          • Sean & Dave, hopefully this will be my last response and then y’all can be rid of me. I’m not going to further address John MacArthur’s sin. We can all agree that his verbiage of “go home” could have been a little more grace-filled. And I am also not going to address Phil Johnson’s comments, which I actually find to be much more hurtful than JM’s. But nobody really knows who Phil is, so his name wasn’t sensational enough to make the headlines. I have three general areas of concern/disagreement with what you’ve said.

            1. John MacArthur is absolutely allowed to have a FIRM opinion on this doctrinal topic. In firm, I mean, he can believe that he is right and that there is no other way. That is why we have so many denominations and churches within the Christian faith……because Bible reading, Bible teaching leaders have interpreted the Bible differently. Sean, you don’t seem to like that MacArthur sees his “position as irrefutable” and that he has the “I’m right and you all must agree or be labeled as a heretic”. Well, newsflash, every Pastor holds their positions with great conviction, and if they don’t, they are weak Pastors and I grieve for their confused flock. How are they to teach if they don’t hold a solid position? The issue of female leadership/teaching in the church is what I consider an “open-handed” doctrine. It is not essential for salvation. I believe that there will be people from both sides of the fence in heaven. However, there is ONE interpretation that is correct, and that is God’s. God DOES have an opinion on this topic. We will know the correct interpretation in heaven. I tend to think John MacArthur is correct, however, who knows, maybe I’ll be surprised. Maybe Beth Moore is correct. I can’t wait to find out! But we won’t know this side of heaven. In the meantime, John MacArthur has every right to teach his view, and only his view, to his congregation, or to any who make the choice to listen to him. We are called to be watchmen on the wall, sounding the trumpet when we see danger approaching. In that panel discussion, MacArthur was sounding a trumpet regarding a doctrine he sees as dangerous. That does not make him unloving or harsh. Maybe his choice of words could have been better, but the fact that he regards his position as correct, is absolutely acceptable, and in fact expected in his position of leadership.

            2. The public nature of the rebuke that John MacArthur received on this website, and hundreds of others, by brothers in Christ, was completely unbiblical, sad, and honestly shocking in my opinion. Now unbelievers ranting about it, I don’t care….they don’t know better. But you guys…..mature believers? The Bible speaks of discipline in Matt. 18 and in summary, in order for it to happen a person must be a believer, affiliated with the church that is disciplining them, and must be knowingly and defiantly persisting in sin. There is absolutely NO biblical case for Pastors or laypeople outside of one’s local, covenant membership to discipline another believer. And that is exactly what has been done to JM. He has been “disciplined”…which means, by definition, rebuked for an offense. You may say, “oh we were just encouraging other believers to do better, using this already public situation as an example”. Nope, no biblical case for that. Proverbs 17:19 – “Whoever covers an offense seeks love, but he who repeats a matter separates friends”. You defamed the name of an anointed man of God and spread his sin further and wider than it would have ever gone. I know the internet “feels” like our church sometimes with all of the dialogue that happens here, but it is not! Neither Dave, Max Lucado, J.D. Greear, or anyone else has the authority to publicly rebuke John MacArthur. There are a million other ways to encourage your flocks to love better. Holding up a brother’s sin and calling it “disgusting” and “appalling” is actually the MOST appalling thing I can think of. What took place on these blogs was gossip, slander, and unwholesome talk, all in the name of “love”. We need to be VERY careful about broadcasting a fellow believer’s sin publicly. It is not a loving or biblical response to sin, and therefore does harm on so many levels. There is no example of this behavior anywhere in the Bible. And please don’t use Paul and Peter…..they were within each other’s direct church community, therefore, it was entirely permissible what Paul did. It seems almost commonplace to blog about a topic like this because JM is a public figure and christian bloggers and commentators these days can’t miss an opportunity to strike while the iron is hot. But be careful….never at the expense of a brother in Christ. On the other hand, it is 100% appropriate for the elders of Grace Community to pull John aside and draw to his attention anything that is deemed as sinful. That may have happened, but honestly, it is not our business. Sean, you justified the public nature of this incident by saying that these comments were “posted as a proclamation for all to hear”. That is unequivocally false. The comments did become public, but they were not posted by Dr. MacArthur or his staff. If you can find otherwise, then I apologize for my error. The session has never been posted on the app, the website, or anything published by the church. The video is nowhere to be found. It looks like an “audio leak”. Many other sermons from the conference were posted, but this never was. And it wasn’t posted and removed in response to the controversy. It was NEVER posted. I am under the impression that it was always meant to be a session to remain within those walls. Kind of a “family” discussion on doctrine. Again, not making the case at all that sin is okay if it is in secret. I’m simply refuting your comment that John MacArthur made himself public, therefore that justifies public scrutiny. You said that he “sullied the gospel for all to see, and so I must speak for all to see”. Um, no, John MacArthur’s sin is not your responsibility. If you are an elder at GCC, then yes, but you are not, so not in your job description.

            3. Sean, lastly, in one of your earliest comments you said that people are leaving the church because Christians don’t lead with love. You say we are “more concerned with being right than loving others”. Don’t really know where to start here. What city do you live in? I live in Dallas. We just got hit with a tornado a few days ago. Schools, homes, and business were destroyed in the heart of our city. While everyone is pitching in to help, who are the most visible in the recovery effort? Christians. Where are all of the drop off locations for supplies and food? Churches. When I went to clean up, who was I with? Mainly believers in Jesus. Who runs the abortion clinics trying to save the lives of innocent children? Christians. Where were your children born? Very likely it was a Baptist, Presbyterian, or Methodist hospital. When you serve in a soup kitchen on Thanksgiving day, who are you most likely serving with? Christians. When you go in a prison on a Saturday, who is usually there crying with and loving on the people? Christians. Since when have we gotten the bad wrap o not leading with love? I’ll tell you where….from our “progressive” and tolerant culture that is speaking lies to us and telling us that proclaiming the truth and holding an opinion on something is “unloving”. Suddenly, sharing with people that homosexuality is not God’s design for relationships is harsh and unloving. Actually, it is the most loving thing you can tell someone struggling in that sin. Let me tell you, my hairdresser for TEN years was a gay man. I sat in his chair 6 times a year for 10 years. My hair takes a long time to color, so doing the math, I spent upwards of 180 solid hours with this man. I laughed with him, cried with him, knew his mom and his aunts’ names, tipped him well, bought him gifts (including a Bible and his favorite brand of shirt at Nordstrom…lol), and cried when we hugged goodbye before he moved to a different city to be closer to family. He KNEW that I loved him. But, I never ONCE endorsed his lifestyle. That would have been the most cruel thing I could have ever done. I always spoke truth to him. He was a lost, unhappy soul, hidden behind a bright smile and outgoing personality. He was walking outside of God’s will and I was NOT going to tell him that it was okay. I LOVED him by telling him that God loves him and has a BETTER way for him. God’s truth is NEVER unloving. The problem with Christianity is that we don’t have truth anymore. Everything is permissible now. That’s why we don’t look different from the world. Why would people be attracted to Jesus? We’ve made him look like some worldly dude who just thinks all is okay if we love people. Well love doesn’t exist without truth. Love rejoices with the TRUTH. Jesus is the way, the TRUTH, and the life. You will know the TRUTH, and the TRUTH will set you free. Need I go on? Biblical truth is imperative. Hence the name of John MacArthur’s conference….”Truth Matters”. But it has been lost. Because pastors are so fearful of being scrutinized and judged, just as JM has been judged this week. Thankfully, we still have pastors like Dr. MacArthur who care more about God’s glory than public opinion. Absolute truth is a very unpopular concept these days. One of the most absolute truths in the history of the world, one’s gender, is now not so absolute. So, we are not missing LOVE, we are missing TRUTH. The prevailing cultural virtue of tolerance has infiltrated the evangelical church. And one last thing…..in response to your quote “if the poor treatment of women is seen as acceptable, we lose our chance to preach the gospel”. By this statement you are making a HUGE and accusatory statement about John MacArthur. You are insinuating that he treats women poorly. Really? Because of his “go home” statement? Why don’t you speak to his wife, daughters, sisters, friends, and women in his congregation before you toss an awful statement like that out there in the open? Shameful. I can assure you that John MacArthur does not treat women poorly.

            If we are to love, shouldn’t we LOVE our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ the BEST? If I can’t love, forgive, and encourage my own family, how can I possibly love strangers? Wouldn’t a more appropriate headline to this situation have been….”All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, BUT Jesus’ blood covers all, and we love and forgive our faithful brother in Christ even in his missteps…..just as we will love you even in your missteps. Come to our imperfect church and meet Jesus, the Forgiver of all sins”. That wold have reflected this LOVE that you speak of. But, unfortunately, Pastors went a different and sinful direction. And it didn’t help anyone.

          • Courtney, thank you for all of your thoughtful responses. It’s obvious that you hold a deep, abiding love of Jesus, and I’m confident that if we knew each other personally we would find much more unites us than divides us. I admire your stand for righteousness, and your defense of your brother in Christ. This will be my last comment on the matter too.

            Like you, I have served shoulder to shoulder with Christians who serve the lost, the lowly, the forgotten, and the hurting in the name of Jesus. It’s during these times that I see the Church (the big “C” church meaning the family of God) working together as it should. Like you I hold there are some absolute truths. Like you I see issues we grapple with as open handed and closed handed. My thinking was changed very radically when talking to a colleague from work about my faith. She, like you, has a dear friend who is gay. Her friend’s experience wasn’t like that of your hairdresser. Rather, he was shouted down they day before by Christians while he was at a rally in support of same sex marriage. My colleague’s first question to me upon opening what might have been an illuminating conversation about faith was targeted at how Christian’s stand opposed to same sex marriage. I’m not trying to open a discussion about that issue, but I did realize in that moment that all she knew about Christians was what they stand against. Since then, much like you I suspect, I make sure I have earned the respect of someone before I discuss what the Bible has to say about their sin. I see the disintegration of the church into denomination after denomination as another symptom of the church continuing to take stands on what it is against. Certainly there are justified splits, but so many are over what I think we would both see as open handed issues. I think it breaks God’s heart to see His children squabbling so. I belong to an Evangelical Free church, and I think MacArthur’s church does as well….maybe not. I do, however, see us all as part of the same family, and it hurts me when my brothers and sisters go to war over these open handed issues. Yes, we owe a great debt of grace to our brothers and sisters in Christ. Perhaps you are right and I should give MacArthur more quarter here. He has certainly preached the Gospel faithfully, and has had a terrific impact over the years. My greater concern is with the lost, those Jesus came to save. He was the master of reaching across cultures and breaking down religious division in order to share the simple Gospel of truth. I’m thinking of the woman at the well, and I see people on the other side of these open handed issues as our opportunity to be like Jesus. Yes, He spoke truth…..remember though…He first sat down, dined with, healed, defended, suffered aspersions……I know you get it.

            Thanks Courtney, I know these posts/opinions are hard for you to take. I value your engagement.

      • Nice. So the faithful pastor, upholding the plain, historical and orthodox teaching of Scripture, is now guilty of slander and evil thoughts when he uses that objective standard to call another professed Christian minister to account? Where did MacArthur slander anyone? He expressed his very real and actual concerns regarding Beth Moore’s ministry and her functioning as a pastor of both men and women. That isn’t slander. Nor is he guilty of evil suspicions when he’s simply pointing to what is already publicly known problematic and unapologetic behavior. It’s actually slanderous to impugn the conduct and character of another minister of Christ by misrepresenting what they’ve said and done, without actual (biblical) evidence of wrongdoing. Given most of what I’ve read here, maybe the sin we should be discussing is the bearing of false witness.

  21. Mark, thank you for this article. Well said! I am deeply disturbed not only by the horrible remarks and responses made by John MacArthur and friends and folks at the conference, but by the many articles popping up, attempting to defend his indefensible attitude toward a fellow believer. The attempt to justify his outrageous treatment of Beth Moore by shifting into high gear regarding women in ministry is heartbreaking to me. Those who defend him by disregarding his very unChristian behavior make matters worse for the church and undermine their position on scripture at the same time. You hit the nail squarely on the head. I am grateful for you and will hold you in my prayers.

  22. Hey, if you guys don’t believe the Bible, that’s between you and God. I do believe the Bible, and it says that women should not be preaching and usurping authority and they ought to be busy taking care of their families.

    I see no evidence in the world that the new way of doing things with women teaching and running things is working out well. I see moral decadence and social pathology and the decay of civilization.

    I also think you feminists are making a mistake by arguing with the Christian Bible, because in the long run the alternative will be that the world will be forced to decide that Islam must have been right about women all along. I think Christianity is right about women, not Islam, but when you destroy Christianity, what makes you think that your Marxist feminism will be viable?

  23. This kind of thing is so so problematic to see in the church, what should be the body of Christ!

    Instead of tearing women down like this misogynistic pig is doing, trying to keep them barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, we should be building women. Up!

    Mcarthur must apologize for this insensitivity. My family was sitting there listening to this clip together, and when it was through, my wife’s son said “Dad, why does he hate women so much?” Just about brought me to tears.

  24. Mark, you are, of course, completely wrong, and John MacArthur is right that no Biblical case can be made for a woman preacher. Beth Moore has rejected the Biblically distinct roles for men and women, husbands and wives. Listen here to Lori Alexander describing what the Bible actually does say: https://thetransformedwife.com/male-preachers-calling-out-female-preachers/. MacArthur is even right in his harshness. Gross error needs to be rebuked. You and Beth Moore are pushing secular Progressivism, not Christianity.

  25. And yet I’ll stand here as a graduate of his seminary, as someone who still employs the hermeneutical tools and methods I learned at his seminary, and make a strong argument to the contrary.

    …and proceeds to make no case at all, weak or strong, to the contrary.

    • Your entire comment is an ad hominem attack. Attacking the arguer instead of the argument. This is not about leftism. This article is addressing Macarthur’s demeaning and mean-spirited attitude toward Beth Moore. Her false teaching is irrelevant. Just because she may be a false teacher, doesn’t excuse John Macarthur’s unChrsitlike behavior. Yes, he’s allowed to disagree. But Jesus does NOT permit mocking or jeering.

  27. The gentlemen in question spoke callously as if they were given over regularly to talk about people in an abusive manner. Without care for others feelings or under the Authority of their calling as Church leadership or God

  28. Hello to all who have commented,
    I really have enjoyed seeing everyone’s differing comments. All have made really good points. Courtney you have helped me greatly in thinking better of JM’s side. I still don’t agree with his word usage and tone. I love John Macarthur. If I had seen this in him as a pattern of his behavior that would be one thing, but overall this is not his pattern. As many of you may also like that applied to your daily Christian behavior and attitudes hey? Does he have a bit of a tude? Yep. John Macarthur always has had that and I’ve heard him say how pride is something he has to be cautious of as anyone in his position would. That’s not to make any excuse for sinning either. Spurgeon struggled with pride too. Look at how God used him? Luther as well…had terrible moods along with so many flaws…yet still God used this man greatly. I have listened to JM for over 20 years. I have so many of his books. He has done so much for the KINGDOM of God and likely more than most of us here on this page have done and likely he will withstand this outburst and continue to do great things for God’s Kingdom. But I do believe this reaction is way over the top already. Holy CoW! I have heard him talk about woman over many sermons. He does not have a low view of woman. The fact that he’s flawed and a sinner? Just like you and me? Well…I’ve done this very same thing to people. Who of us has not? I’ve screwed up my words, my tone with so many people over the many years of serving Christ it’s truly sad. But I run to the LORD and he quickly forgives me, just like we should run quickly to forgive each other. And please believe me when I say this…it is agonizing to me the depth of my sinful state in NOT walking in forgiveness whenever a brother or sister sins against me. I’m still called to love them EVEN IF they don’t REPENT! 1 Jn 1:8-9. And something that you all have missed here is this…Ya know what? God is Sovereign and guess what??? HE ALWAYS USES A BUNCH OF SCREWED UP PEOPLE AND STILL HE GET’S THE GLORY! The Bible is filled with screwed up people telling of an AWESOME ALL POWERFUL GOD. Is John Macarthur gonna slow God down? Is John Macarthur gonna screw up God’s plan to save the lost…..???? Is John Macarthur really that all powerful?? Hahha…I think it’s kind of funny how dramatic we can be. HOw does GOD let any of us breath in and out? We can get all smug ourselves in pointing out each other’s sins and man…it will be all day long if I look at myself…and that’s only just what I know. I’m a lot worse than I think I am cowering under the MASSIVE HOLINESS OF AN AWESOME GOD!! It’s truly a bit comical, to me, of how quickly we all forget that?? I don’t say this in any cavalier manner either. I mean it with fear and trembling before a HOLY, HOLY, HOLY God!! Why may I ask are we so shocked that John Macarthur is not perfect? Haha. I think it’s a bit funny. What do you think Paul meant in…”I am the chief of all sinners.” I mean really ?? Man he knew what he was. He not only was saved, he was being saved. And guess what? John Macarthur, sorry to burst your bubble, is STILL being SAVED!! He’s not there yet and neither are any of us. Man we are just like a bunch coffee clutching old ladies…ready to ripe the a*s end out of poor mule donkey…heh heh. God must be shaking His head. All this drama. When we can really just look at someone like John and say, Yep…heh heh…I’m just like you John and apply 1 John 1:8-9. Crud! Then guess what? I don’t flip out when my brother or sister in Christ….what??? Sins? Or sin’s against me…even if they are not repentant. Not my job to fix everyone. Can’t do it. I kind of think this is a good thing that happened actually. Because, maybe, there are people listening to John and have him on some kind of pedestal and the next thing you know we are worshipping him instead of God. Perhaps the LORD sovereignly allowed us all to see John is a sinner too…and he needs Jesus just like everyone else. I’m glad we saw a bit of this in Dr. John Macarthur to tell you the truth. Cuz when people come at me with, Well did you see what he said? I’m gonna say yep and ya know what Jesus is not like that. He’s not like any of us now is he? It’s all about HIM anyway isn’t it? If they ask me I can say yep…John needs a Savior too. Jesus will forever get the GLORY! Not me, not JM, not you. JESUS will even when we screw up. One of the things I love, love, love about our precious Lord Jesus is after he rises from the dead and he’s back with all the cowardly disciples (like I would be) and instead of chastising them…what does he say? “Peace be with you.” John 20:19. He doesn’t say…”Why you stinking pack of cowards you…. and thanks so much, by the way, for deserting me at my most terrible hour.” I mean I totally would have done that. I know me. I mean is that so beautiful or what? Did he know they would screw up? Did He know what they would do? Let me think about that for just a second or two…um YEAH!! Let us be quick to forgive our brother. Quick to pray for him and his ministry. I think Courtney makes a lot of really good points, but I also think Sean and Mark make some good points as well. The thing I didn’t see said is….We are just like JM. We say wrong things…but our words are not open to everyone. I bet if they were…ummmmm….yeah. Him without sin should definitely cast the first stone…as we all sadly walk away understanding what is needed for all is HIS AMAZING grace. Man I need it every day. I’m such a mess. I’m not in any way excusing sin of anyone, but you are right Courtney we should not be slandering an amazing man of God all over social media and think that’s ok. Now we are becoming the very thing we are angry about, which is usually the case I’ve noticed for myself when ever I start finger pointing. God humbles me and I’m back at square one. I haven’t got a plank to stand on and I’m just as guilty as the next guy. Let us all continue on and wallow in the amazing grace of the gospel of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. Let us be gracious to each other…as we all need to do this. I know I do. I really do need him every hour and every second of every day. Let us wallow in the grace of our good King. With much love because of HIS love. Patty

  29. With too many comments, this one may get lost, but..
    MacArthur et al are wrong from the start. She is not a preacher/pastor and has no church to shepard. Her message is NOT for men. It is a relationship message of empathy and connecting with scripture for WOMEN. These guys lack the ability to see outside their comfortable (and profitable) box and are clearly denigrating a threat to their reach and their pride. Beth reaches an audience that they can’t and so they bluster and boast like the vipers they truly are.

  30. The question is folks are we interpreting the Scriptures thru Christ crucified. Even if MacArthur disagree’s with Beth Moore, does he has to use saracasm and contempt to get his point across. In fact why did he have to mention her name? MacArthur loves the Bible more then he loves Jesus. In fact these comments prove this idolatry. He is an excellent Pharisee. The Pharisee’s knew their Bible too………………..and totally missed Jesus. As the British minister to the Vatican Lord Acton sagely observed in 1887……….power tends to corrupt and total power absolutely. MacArthur has a lot of power and he has abused his power here. He has no humility. He believes in bullying , coercing and manipulating people with the Bible. JESUS NEVER DID THIS. I hope that Beth Moore and other women preachers listen and obey the Holy Spirit and not men.

  32. Joni Erickson Tada was a speaker at John MacArthur’s Strange . Why was her speaking to men ok, but Beth Moore’s speaking is not? I bet the response will be she was not speaking on Sunday, but that argument seems to be just semantics. The passage regarding elders need to be the husband of one woman was brought up in these comments, yet that same passage uses the same language for deacons. However, many complementary churches allow woman deacons. Not to mention we see women deacons even in scripture, I.e. Junia. And rather than address the issue this article brought up, which was the total lack of love that John MacArthur and those with him on stage used when addressing Beth Moore, many of these comments have attacked the author. John MacArthur’s comments were public therefore it is right to address him back publicly. In fact, to not do so, would give the impression to the watching world that Chrisitians think it is right to treat women mean spiritedly and dismissively. The jewelry comment cannot in any context have a positive meaning. It is a real job, but whether deserved or not, there is a very negative connotation associated with it. It would be that same as calling someone a tax collector in Jesus day. It feels like John MacArthur’s way of dealing with any issue is to destroy all allies. Who knows if that is how he is or it just fits with the image of him being a 4th cousin to the great General Douglas MacArthur. But is it God’s way? I think every comment here that mentioned they will know us by our love is spot on. God does not want us to be unloving toward other Christians. However, I think this is where we do not really get the other sides argument. They do not think it is bad to speak about Beth Moore as John MacArthur did because they do not view her as a Christian. They see her as satanic so it does not matter how John MacArthur spoke to her.

  33. Mark… what was your intent with your original remarks? Was your intent to further God’s Kingdom? We all ought to be very careful… remove the log. Do these comments posted on the internet foster unity? Do people who stumble across this blog like me see people who love one another? If you truly love might there have been a different approach to your concern about what John MacArthur said? Let’s be encouragers and spur each other on to good works!! His love and mine!

    • Hi Wendy!

      Thanks for taking the time to post such a helpful comment. I tried to be honest about my wrestling on this one. I really believe my motives are to defend a sister and call us away from a toxic and hateful way of interacting online. I tried to note that I don’t always trust my motives, and I continue to pray whether this is helpful or not. My conviction at this moment is that I’ve heard from a ton of people who are thankful that I defended Beth Moore and stood against slanderous speech in the name of God, whereas I’ve only heard from a few people that are offended at what I wrote, and most of those are just accusing me of not believing the Bible. So I still feel like the things I said needed to be said. I’m still praying and still open to being convinced that these words I’ve written should be taken down. I keep re-reading it and I still feel like it is furthering God’s kingdom (because the post is clarifying that God’s kingdom is not about bullying and dividing and demeaning). I also feel like it fosters unity because it’s calling us away from the kind of encampment attitude that parades disunity as doctrinal fidelity.

      BUT I’m not perfect, and the log is always in my eye, and that is literally the reason we created a page called Jackass Theology, so we could confess our jackassery (I’m the foremost) and try to together walk away from it.

  34. Hello Everyone!
    My name is Gabe, I am a 17 year old high school student trying to finish up my senior year as well as planning for the future. I am in the transitory stage where a HUGE number of people decide that they do not want to be associated with the Christian faith. There are no doubt many varying reasons why they, “leave the faith” but many leave because they see little difference between the way Non-Christians act to each other and the way we, who are supposed to be filled with God’s love, act towards each other. So I just wanted to say that, while this is a great site to see different opinions, If any of my non-Christian friends, or even many new converts, were to come upon one of the many articles like this one, I can pretty much state for a fact that their first thought would be, “I thought Christians were supposed to be loving?” To conclude, I just want to clarify that I am not perfect, (duh) and I can lose my temper as well but for those of you who see this, I hope you remember one thing. Are you showing God’s love with your comment?

  35. I am amazed that someone that knows what The Masters Seminary and Dr John teach, can attack Dr John and defend Beth Moore. For the record, the words posed by Todd Friel (“Beth Moore”) to Dr John (who said “Go home”) was in the context of the previous day’s presentation by Justin Peters at the Truth Matters Conference. This pertains to ridiculous claims by Beth Moore such as: God telling her to go outside to build Him a snowman; And what about the bordering-on-crazy story by Beth Moore where she tells a female crowd that God instructed her to go brush a gentleman’s hair who was seated in some waiting area – without having a comb. (2 Pet 2:1-3 shows how false teachers get rich from all their fake, made-up stories – especially what “God” apparently told them.) This is what you are defending. Beth Moore does not even understand basic verses like Heb 1:1-2. Any person who defends the idea of female preachers / teachers IN CHURCH simply does not know Scripture. Their arguments are Scripturally baseless and pure emotion and pragmatism. In the CONTEXT of Dr John’s words of ‘Go Home’ – I would say that Dr John was actually being kind and gentle. I personally would have stated it in a much stronger way. Will I be attacked? Yes. So be it. If you want to be biblical, you will be attacked. But I understand Jesus’ words in Luke 6:26. And forget not God’s clear instruction in Tit 1:9 (refute those who contradict sound doctrine) and Tit 1:11 (stop the mouths of deceivers) – and I view anyone who tells me ‘God told me…’ as a deceiver. I suggest if ANYONE really wants to hear the biblical position, please do listen to this sermon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxtSRfNO5xo

  36. My defense of Dr John and the context of the discussion about Beth Moore gets blocked immediately as “looks like you already said that” when I have never posted here before. So this is a fraud – designed to make Dr John look bad. Terrible. Clearly there are twisted motives here.

  38. It has been announced that Beth Moore is going to be one of the speakers at Truett’s Seminary’s Preaching Conference 2020. Interesting that never once in her response to MacArthur did Beth Moore say she does not believe women should preach. I think that this along with her willingness to assume the pulpit with men present in the audience, and her holding the authority for teaching of the Word of God over men is enough evidence that she is breaking ! Timothy 2. The American Feminization of Christianity has gone on because we as men have not taken our God-given responsibility to lead as Christ is the head of the church. If you don’t like MacArthir’s tone then perhaps you probably won’t like then you are not seeing the seriousness of this issue. A harsh tone reveals a harsh truth. John the Baptist called the Pharisees and Scribes a “Brood of Vipers” – dang that was harsh, but only because the man was not playing around. Jesus called them “Whitewashed tombs” – and where was the love there? And Paul rebuked Peter openly in Acts – but come on now we cant take MacArthur calling Moore out? Just go back and read how the church fathers dealt with serious issues and maybe you wont be so scandalized.

  39. Wow! The comments about Beth Moore bring narcissistic just do not ring true if you have listened to her teach. Thanks, Mark, for including the video clip. It was very enlightening to hear the tone of voice as well as the words. Certainly not spoken in love. Beth Moore directs her ministry to women in a way that no man does. Christian women greatly benefit from her and others like her. She is building up the church. Call it teaching or preaching — it is obvious to me that God’s hand is blessing her ministry to women. Shame on those who are trying to shame her!

    • I’m glad you’ve had such a positive experience with Beth Moore, Lisa. Your experience matches what I’ve seen and heard from her over the years, and her gracious response to all of this only confirms my opinion of her as a godly, gracious, Spirit-filled woman who is doing everything she can to faithfully follow his call on her life and build up the church.

  41. Faux outrage…..Virtue Signaling and moral preening. The last Beth Moore “teaching”I heard , had her being “led by a spirit ” to rummage around a stranger’s luggage and proceed to brush his hair. John Macarthur’s teaching is an oasis in the wasteland that the American church has become. Why, because he teaches God’s Word. Maybe all the publicity will help her achieve her desire to become the moderator of the Southern Baptist Convention. By the way, does anyone know where Mr Moore is?

  42. MacArthur can believe with all his heart that women should not preach, but his dismissive, insulting tone and his un-Christian meanness turned me off to him completely. I own his bible commentary, and I’ve occasionally listened to him on podcast or the radio — but no more. I’m a prodigal who came back to the church in my mid-40s, and Beth’s bible studies were the first I had ever attended. I thought her teaching was amazing, and I’ve done every study she has made and I’ve seen her personally speak 3 times. She is a very good teacher, period. I’ve learned so much about Jesus and God’s word because of her inspiring and sincere teaching. I’m late to this story but when I heard it all I could think of was to pray for the heart, mind and soul of Beth Moore. But take heart, Beth — you must be doing great work for the Kingdom of God for the devil to be so threatened that he would inspire this kind of attack against you — and particularly from an alleged brother-in-Christ. I say Fight On!

    • Except MacArthur is warning against bad teaching. He wasn’t speaking to Beth Moore directly, nor was he preaching. He was asked about Beth Moore (and Beth Moore the ministry by implication) during a forum Q&A. It’s entirely biblical and right within that context to firmly warn against bad/dangerous teaching. Bottom line. And try as he might, Pastor Mark has yet to demonstrate from the Bible that MacArthur was wrong for doing what he did.

      • Hey Zach,

        Maybe this would help, just as a thought experiment or a comparison. I would applaud Dr. MacArthur if he had said something like, “Beth Moore? She has been doing this or that specific thing, and I cannot state how strongly I disagree with her positions and actions. What she is doing is unbiblical, and I call her to look further into those passages and pray that God would allow her to see the truth. I cannot fully express how firmly I hold these convictions because I see them plainly taught in Scripture. I see no room for compromise here.” Notice that if he had said something like that, he would be standing firm on his interpretation of biblical truth, calling out sin, speaking against false teaching, everything you’ve been accusing me of not caring about or denying the importance of. I’d love to have seen Dr. MacArthur state it that way.

        But he didn’t. Instead, he told her to go home and said she should sell jewelry instead of using her gifts for ministry. Phil Johnson accused her of being narcissistic and preaching herself rather than Christ.

        Can you see the difference between those two responses? There is a difference. So how would you categorize that difference? For me, one is standing firm on the truth, the other is demeaning a human being. One is holding firm to biblical convictions, the other is slander.

        We could clear all of this up if you agree that my hypothetical response would have been better. If not, it seems to me you’re defending not just the THEOLOGICAL POSITION that Dr. MacArthur holds, but also the SLANDEROUS AND MEAN SPIRITED WAY IN WHICH HE SAID IT. If you praise Dr. MacArthur’s theological position, I’ll praise you as a brother. If you praise and seek to perpetuate demeaning human beings and slandering them, then I’d say,

        “Woe to those who call evil good
        and good evil,
        who put darkness for light
        and light for darkness,
        who put bitter for sweet
        and sweet for bitter!” (Is. 5:20)

        • Mark I would say you have a point here. The way we say things make a difference, and doing it in love is important. Not calling out the Error of Beth Moore is evil.
          We don’t have the luxury of woman preachers, nor partnering with false teachers and saying they are ok because we think that is love. We don’t have the luxury of acting like the world. Love is TRUTH. The Word of God is TRUTH. We are rooted in the Word and don’t have the luxury of thinking women can be preachers, nor Saying Joel Olstine and Joyce Meyer is ok as she does . As the body of Christ we don’t have that luxury!

          • Love is patient. Love is kind. Does not envy, does not boast. It is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self seeking, it is not easily angered. It keeps not record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

            If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or clanging symbol.

            Zach and Troy, your love for truth is admirable. These familiar verses show the truth of what love is. It cannot be replaced by an alternate or partial definition.

          • Troy,

            Thanks again for remaining a helpful discussion partner here. I genuinely believe your heart is in a great place, and I can see you offering me that same dignity. Another question:

            On your reading of the relevant passages, you’re right that “we don’t have the luxury of woman preachers.” But do you hold open the possibility that your reading of those passages could be wrong? I’m not asking you to contradict Scripture, I’m asking if you think it’s possible that your understanding of Scripture could be driven by cultural assumptions in some places. I don’t hesitate to say that I know I misread Scripture. John MacArthur taught me that at a Shepherd’s Conference one time. He said, “I’m certain that I’m wrong about some things in Scripture. The problem is, I don’t know which things I’m wrong about!” I love that attitude.

            So if it’s POSSIBLE that your reading of women preaching is off, then it’s POSSIBLE Beth Moore’s view is right. I’m not asking you to agree with her. I guess I’m just wondering if you think this is the hill to die on. Does a person’s commitment to Jesus and to Scripture stand or fall on whether or not they take the complementation view on women in ministry? If you’re tempted to answer yes, let me ask why Jesus didn’t talk about this. If it’s this vital of an issue, why are there only three, maybe four passages that deal with it, and why are those passages so hotly debated within virtually every branch of Christianity? I’m all for what you’re saying with regards to the importance of truth, but I think this is an interpretation issue and not a “do you believe the Bible or not” issue.

            I’m honestly curious what you think. Thanks for taking the time.

          • Hi Mark Thank you sir for your comment. No this issue isn’t worth dying on the hill for sure.1 timothy 12-14 says :I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.For Adam was formed first, then Eve;and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Paul is setting up the church model with these letters through the Holy Spirit. This is pretty hard to get the roles mixed up here. Very clear may I say? My old Pastor is of the idea this is purely of the times. We got along very good. For me one that is is partnering with false teachers. When my Pastor went to the Saddleback conference this year with Rick Warren that was it for me. They had a catholic priest speak there. The Catholic Church isn’t a Christian church with the Gospel of Christ. Galatians 1:9 is very clear about the different gospel. The Word is very clear about false teachers and the hazards of them. To avoid them and also to call them out. Beth Moore is being deceived by partnering with Joyce Meyer period. I can see from Beth and Joyce and even Christine Cane that they are being deceived by false teachers and are becoming ones as well. No one is addressing this issue and its the bigger one. Have you read Spurgeon the Sword and the Trowel? He says “fellowship with known and vital error is participation in sin.” Oh how easy it would be to Agree with Rick Warren , Oprah, and Beth Moore, along with the World. We are called to be set apart, different, even hated by the world. Standing firm in the Truth, the Word , the Gospel of Christ.

          • Mark I would really like to talk about some of these things in more detail. You have my email, email me and I will give you my phone # maybe we could talk. Thank you sir.

        • Again, Mark, you continue to (conveniently) ignore the context of their comments, as if they existed in vacuum. And you know better. The real issue in all of this is the authority and sufficiency of Scripture. The biblical text is not ambiguous. In multiple places, as has been demonstrated to you may times, the Bible prohibits women from functioning in the role of pastor and teacher in the congregational context. You have not and cannot present a positive argument for women pastors from the scriptural text because one does not exist. Until you address this fundamental flaw in your argumentation, you’ll continue to undermine the very objective foundations on which a preacher of Gospel of Christ depends for his ultimate authority in the preaching of any and every other doctrine. If Biblical authority is to be questioned on this issue today then what about homosexuality tomorrow? Or the exclusivity of Christ for salvation the next day? The slippery slope of compromise is real and treacherous.

  43. Zach, I find it disheartening that this discussion has devolved into attacks on people who hold a different point of view. Mark is not ignoring the context of scripture. Rather, he has provided multiple scriptural arguments for another point of view. Mark is not arguing for the installation of women as pastors, he is advocating that Jesus followers follow his example of Grace. Mark is not saying that Beth Moore’s stances on all issues are his stances, he is pointing out that she has been mistreated in the name of Jesus. You will recall, Jesus was silent on the topic of women in leadership in the church. He was not silent about the sin of usurping God’s authority to abuse others.

    I think that if we read through this site and don’t see a mirror reflecting our own shortcomings as followers of Jesus, then we aren’t being honest with ourselves. If we aren’t being honest with ourselves, then why bother wading into the dialogue? As time has gone on, I’ve seen most of the comments on this topic stray from an open dialogue to defenses of positions already held. Too bad.

    • Yes, Sean, he has. And you know what’s truly disappointing? When people falsely characterize the legitimate biblical criticisms of fellow believers as attacks. Paul exhorted his fellow brothers and sisters in Christ to be good Bereans. He lauded the Bereans because they desired a deep familiarity and knowledge of the Word of God, and because of their care in examining every doctrine in light of the entirety of Scripture. Those is positions of leadership, especially preaching and teaching, are under even greater responsibility. The Bible warns elders that they will be held accountable for how faithful and reverentially they represent God’s Word to the sheep He’s entrusted to their care. This isn’t a popularity contest. There’s much more at stake here.

  45. Wow, I’m so grateful for this article. I’ve been thinking lately about the idea that “what you allow, you approve of.” In any situation with a power dynamic, neutrality always sides with the oppressor. Thank you for using your voice to defend the other 60% of the body of Christ.

  46. I came upon this blog and it sadden me. I am going to try to unite both sides and first I want to say John MacArthur is right, and wrong, and you need to view this through two different lenses. I can quote a lot of scripture that will back him up. I can make his case. I also can make the case, and quote scripture, how our Father in Heaven, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit has used women in ministry to help the people. The problem is no one is searching for God’s heart and his will.

    The story that came to me is when the Pharisees brought a woman to Jesus that was caught in adultery John 8:1-11. Frist let’s get a fact down. When Jesus walk on earth he was here under the law. The new covenant didn’t start until Pentecost and his resurrection. In the story the Pharisees were right, and Jesus could have said, woman is this true, did you break my Father command, and commit adultery? If she said yes, he could have said, it is written you must die, and he would have followed the law, but Jesus demonstrated the new covenant and his place. He demonstrated his High Priest and his forgiveness.

    You must put yourself back in this time. God under the law made a hierarchy and everybody had their place. Why? He knew this would happen and he knew it would cause division. In the new covenant Jesus flip it upside down, and if you are a Christian you are now on the bottom of the spectrum and you are a servant to your fellow man, and everybody is above you including women and children. You serve others not yourself. I believe why Paul wrote some of the stuff about women and their place was he knew it would cause a lot of division, and I don’t think God cares about that. Just think if Paul said to the Pharisees and the religious establishment you are to serve the people and put yourself below them, it would have caused a war. What did Paul say? He said be submissive and subject to their husband, don’t speak in church knowing it would cause division. He is showing the new covenant, women put yourself below others. He wants your heart and he doesn’t care who is speaking on his behalf. I believe if Beth Moore led someone to Christ through her ministry there is a party in heaven, and rejoicing, and God is being glorified. Is God getting the praise and glory when you blog, or do you just care about being right? Be very careful, you are playing in Satan’s sandbox here. He is the prince of air, and he can do a lot of harm through Strife and division. Don’t fall for Satan craftiness and deceptions.

    Under the new covenant I believe John MacArthur is wrong, because he is putting himself above others, and Jesus never did that. So now do I bash John MacArthur, for God sake NO! He is a man of God and preaching his word. I will pray for him, that the Holy Spirit will soften his heart and be able to see God’s heart and his will.

  47. In answering the woman that is exalting women perhaps how Jesus responded would have been more appropriate. “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

    Luke 11:25-28 (ESV)
    And when it comes, it finds the house swept and put in order. Then it goes and brings seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter and dwell there. And the last state of that person is worse than the first.”
    As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!” But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

  48. I don’t know if your post is directed at my post(Guest), I am a man, but I think you have a good point and we should do what the word says. I will expand on my comment. When Paul said, Woman do not speak in church and if you have question ask your Husband in privacy. Why would Paul Say that? My guest is Woman were speaking and it was causing a lot conversation and division. Division is the work of Satan; Gods work is to unify and be one mind in Christ.

    In 1 Corinthians 12:1 it says, Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters. He is including men and women in speaking about gifts, and they are given by the Holy Spirit. If God only wanted men to teach and preach, I believe Paul would have said, those gifts are given to men and only men, but he didn’t. He talks about the unity of the body and the diversity and many parts. Notice how many times he uses the word ONE, one body, one spirit. Look down to verse 24-31 he talks about the gifts and the goal. They work in unison so there won’t be division. Look at all the gifts, why does he give them? What is the purpose? I say, if you use them for God’s glory, they will be used to serve others, and God will be praised and receive all the glory. Then Verse 31 it doesn’t say men eagerly desire the greater gifts. He is including women. You can also go to Philippians 2 He talks about being one in spirit and of one mind and having the same mindset as Christ.

    Last I want to say with love and respect the Church needs to pray for softer hearts and discernment and start teaching the work of Satan, his craftiness and descriptions and the Church needs to realize we are no match for Satan when we do this by the flesh, and if we do this with the Holy Spirit then Satan will be no match for us. I am going to give the Church a prayer that was download by the Holy Spirit for the Church. When there is division in the church and you want what God wants, say this Prayer.

    I pray to you O Heavenly Father everything I know to be true about you and your word take it away from me. Teach me your truth through the Holy Spirit. Have him guide me and convict me where I need convicting. Teach me your ways not church ways or human ways I want to hear from you O Heavenly Father.

  49. It’s not so much that Beth Moore preaches the Gospel. In fact many women are excellent teachers of God’s word. June Hunt comes to mind, Kay Arthur, Nancy Pearcy of which MacArthur sells her books in his bookstore! Is her books only for women? But the problem with Beth Moore for me is her association with Joyce Meyer a well known faith teacher. I wonder if Mrs Moore has ever been forewarned of the faith doctrine Meyers teaches? If yes, then is her relationship simply human sentiment or if no then how deeply is she involved in serious study of God’s word especially in these last days?

    • Hi Rick. Thanks for narrowing down your concern here. It’s helpful to have a specific thing to evaluate. We definitely shouldn’t be trying to decide if Beth Moore is 100% “good” or 100% “bad.” Here’s my 2 cents regarding Joyce Meyer: Do you think this is a fair basis on which to evaluate Beth Moore? Paul did not reject the partnership of other people ministering just because he didn’t agree with them on every point (see Philippians 1). John MacArthur himself has been on TBN, we’d probably both agree it would be unfair to then attribute to MacArthur all of the theological errors presented on that station. Does that make sense? And perhaps more to the point for me, even if Beth Moore and Joyce Meyer were the exact same person, should John MacArthur’s comments be considered God-honoring? I’m genuinely interested in hearing your thoughts here. Thanks for your time.

      • Hi Mark. R. Romero again. Reading your response again I noticed the comment, “just because he didn’t agree with them on every point,” concerning Paul’s association with partnerships. When it was within Christianity and they were preaching the Gospel truthfully then he accepted them even though they were doing things out of envy as in the case of those in the book of Philippians 1:15-18 I believe. But when it came to false doctrine, like the broken clock that only works 2 times a day he called it not working. In other words false doctrine is something he would never not only not associate with but would call it out and refute and expose it as such. On every point is more for those that are in agreement on the essentials of Christianity as you probably well know having gone through the Masters Seminary. Atonement the nature of God, the truthfulness of His word etc.. Then there will be the, ‘in house,’ disagreements. But when Jesus is proclaimed as someone you can equal in power and you just have to increase in faith and you can have all the spectapular mansions and private Jet planes with your own private airport for your family on an island overlooking a beautiful lake; then, you know something is amiss. You ARE GOD is what Kenneth Copland said several times and Joyce agrees with them but is more undercover now. B. Moore may not know but someone should let her know and maybe she can witness to J. Meyer the truth.

      • One last thing Mark. I don’t mean to be a goody 2 shoes or religious zealot but the word Jack a… is a but course dontch think?
        I now refrain from saying the other name for rooster or for the female dog or JackA because of our pornographic and belittling culture. I protect those I teach realizing that in their minds while giving a Godly message I use a word that will cause their thinking to veer in a evil direction since words like rooster or the other word for donkey is used to describe a womens you know or a mans by women and a mans private part.. I simply use the sanitary word in our culture because as my wife n I have counseled over the years we have come to realize how hard it is for people to purify their minds from the evil they were in and its usually sexual evil, so those words are not helpful. Just a note Mark to consider but I know many old school guys still use those terms innocently such as John Coursen, rooster, donkey, Macarthur for donkey etcc. Not sayin your an old school guy! 🙂

        • Thanks, Rick! I love this discussion. I really appreciate your willingness to dialogue and go back and forth with sound arguments. First of all, with regard to the word jackass, we’ve found it to be helpful because it cuts through our religious apathy in a way concepts like “pharisee” don’t. Having said that, I really respect the reasons you just gave and can appreciate where you’re coming from. Thanks for helping me see that side of it.

          Second, I have had big concerns about Copeland and I’ve heard similar things with Meyer, but I haven’t done any of my own study into their teaching so I really don’t know. I’m not sure Moore’s take on either of them, but I agree with your clarifications: when it comes to central gospel issues, there’s a difference. I’d be shocked if Beth Moore affirmed either person SPECIFICALLY FOR their taking an unorthodox stance on a gospel issue. Does that make sense? I can see her being a friend to someone without affirming all of their theology, even if it’s blatantly heretical. But I really like your clarifications, and I like the comment below where you dig into that more. Thanks for the great conversation here.

  50. And no, it’s not on a fair bases to evaluate Beth Moore. She needs to be evaluated on her doctrinal positions of which I have lost touch with her since the Joyce Meyer friendship. I do not know if Beth is adhering to faith doctrine now but years ago she was cool with me. As you know; the word of God will be questioned always but particularly in the days before the end of time. There will be a (great falling away Mtt 24) and (apostasy 2 Thess Ch.2,) (deception Mtt 24 and because of wickedness abounding the love of many will wax cold.) It’s dangerous to be associated with false teachers. It gives Macarthur ammunition regarding 1 Tim 2 where the woman was the one deceived and not Adam. He did not mention Moore with Meyer but only that she should not teach men and to go home which was demeaning and I agree with you. That’s why maybe I believe that a woman can teach men but should have a Male Pastor that she would be accountable too and keeps her accountable. This goes for men also that belong to a Church but travel much on conferences and the like.

  51. Thanks mark for your gracious response. A good book that will analyse the faith doctrine is, ” A different Gospel,” by D.R. McConnell
    He very thorough and gives you the background as to how it all began.
    God bless you Brother

  52. It is really just a case of bad hermeneutics. If you compare 1 Peter 3: 1-6 with 1 Tim 2: 9-12 It becomes very obvious that Peter was talking about the same thing even using the similar words “3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; 4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit,” And these words help us capture the “intended meaning” of Paul’s ” like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 1 1Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.” This “teaching” has nothing to do with teaching other men the bible, it is about a wife’s attitude toward her husband and that unseemly “correcting” of the man that we have all seen a woman do to her husband in public and find very uncomfortable to witness. Also. If one reads 1 Tim 2:9 and interprets it in such a way so as to allow their wives to wear pearls today and not be in violation of the intended meaning of this verse, (giving allowance for a cultural context) but then creates in their mind a Law against a woman teaching the bible to men from verse 12 (which is not what the text says) not only have they read into the text what is not there (i.e. adding “the bible” to the word “teach”) they have also applied contradictory methods of interpretation from the same passage allowing for cultural context interpretation in verse 9 but not in verse 12. It is just bad hermeneutics.
    Please read carefully these two passages below and using your common sense, reconsider what the intended meaning of the authors were without letting extraneous interpretations to confuse your logic.
    1 Peter 3:1-6 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; 2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. 3Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; 4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. 5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: 6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
    7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
    1 Tim 2:9-12 9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

  53. Firstly, I would never profess to know all that the bible states regarding the issue of women pastors so I won’t venture there.

    I am disappointed that such a biblically sound pastor would speak that way about another Christian. However, having said that, he is human and none of us are perfect.

    Rather than judging fellow Christians, I think when we see them behaving in ways that are not loving, unkind and judgmental, it should prompt us to want to pray for them.

    Having said that though… I have noticed many biblically sound men come across to be angry, self-righteous men who demean women. Whether there is some underlying feeling or misunderstanding or hurt, I don’t know but I’ve noticed that with many that I personally know. Someone said it’s because of their Calvinist teachings… I don’t know enough about those teachings so cannot comment on that.

    I just wanted to finally mention that Satan just wants to destroy, divide and deceive the Christian family of believers. We need to unite, pray for one another and focus on destroying the work of the real enemy by helping our fellow believers and reaching out to the lost. You don’t reach out to the lost through spouting unkind, aggressive gospel.

    In Korea, currently many churches are upset because they have closed churches gathering because of the coronavirus but kept nightclubs and pubs open. However, the anger from some churches is also drawing criticism from the public. I understand some pastors are encouraging churches to reach out to the lost by serving society and helping the needy. Right now there are desperate unbelievers in thirst of the gospel. As Jesus said, the harvest is plenty but the workers are few. Let’s unite together for the greater task Jesus gave us!

    God bless you all.

  54. Actually, it was not so much of what he said, but the way he expressed himself. As if women are second class as compared to men My husband and I stood on equal ground for 51 years. We had no conflict in the arena of man verses woman. He was raised by his wonderful mother. John MacArthur you really expressed yourself like a real jerk. By the way, sometimes the Lord God uses a women when he cannot find a “dutiful” man. Believe me I am the last person who desires to be in leadership. I enjoy the servants role. You know witnessing for Christ. Such as yesterday, two young men. Uh Oh! A women witnessing to a male! God forbid! See how asinine this whole incident appears. Believe me, J. MacArthur you will have many regretful thoughts if your wife passes away before you. Talking from experience. A widow for 4 and one-half years. Looking forward to seeing my second best friend in heaven. Jesus is first of course. Also pastor MacArthur I have had 4 last days dreams. The last one was a real doozie (spelling?) God bless, we all need His blessings now, especially now! By the way, I was at once a school teacher. Linda Muriel Powell Bryant

  55. Mark, thank you for saying what you’ve said. I first heard a recording of the session during an evening class in which we were discussing negotiable vs. non-negotiable disagreements. It really broke my heart to hear a “negotiable” disagreement being treated as a reason to disrespectfully shred a sister in Christ. What you say here is compassionate, and your heart for unity in the Body is apparent, and I really appreciate it.

  56. Beth Moore is a heretic. What Pastor MacCarthur is stating is truth, it is what the Word says. If you have a problem with that, then take it up with the Lord, Himself.

    • Hi Andrea,

      Are you pleased with THE WAY Pastor MacArthur said what he said? Do you believe the Lord Himself is pleased with the way he said it? I was very careful in the article to say that it’s not Pastor MacArthur’s view that was offense to me, it was THE WAY he said it. Surely the truth of Scripture, inspired as it is by God himself, can do all the work necessary of exposing error, surely it doesn’t need a human pastor’s added disdain to make it more powerful? Could a simple statement of biblical truth would have been preferable?

  57. I agree that John Macarthur did not use a very loving way to talk about Beth Moore but he was completely right to warn people about her false teaching. Jesus taught us to watch out for false teacher’s. Peter,Paul,John and Jude all warn us about false teacher’s.
    Something to think about though is what did Jesus do in the temple when people were making a mockery of what God’s house should be like. Jesus was angry and his anger was not sin.
    Here are a couple of sites pointing out Beth Moore’s false teaching:

    https://biblethumpingwingnut.com/2019/10/21/5-sins-beth-moore-is-guilty-of/

    http://www.piratechristian.com/messedupchurch/2017/1/the-beth-moore-cornucopia-of-false-doctrine-frenetic-speeches-and-mysticism

  58. Paul did not allow women to preach. He said “I” do not allow it. Notice Paul is not Jesus. Had Paul said, “The Lord forbids women from preaching” then that’s a higher authority, but Paul referenced himself not Jesus. Note also that Paul did not say, “I do not allow it, nor must you Timothy.” He did not say, “Timothy it is a sin to allow women to preach.”

    Furthermore, since this conceivably disqualifies 50% of potential preachers since women are around 50% of the population, there must be a tremendous practical reason why Paul would disqualify all women from the pulpit, no? I seem to remember Paul telling Timothy that it was Eve who first sinned not Adam. Ah so sin came into the world through a woman did it? Oops, then God should have come into the world as a woman. But no, when it comes to the theology of the last Adam, Paul makes sure Adam is the originator of sin not Eve. So Eve’s place as first sinner is not really anything other than a disqualification of women. Of course he also said women will be saved…through childbirth. Don’t you just love the way Paul unifies us all and makes us all one in Christ in the Pastoral epistles?

    Isn’t it strange that the most difficult passages of Paul regarding women are all in the pastorals? Have you heard that many scholars and textual critics believe that the pastorals were written later by someone else? Ah but that is a heresy against infallibility of our canon isn’t it? No that won’t do…unless of course you are talking about the woman caught in adultery. Even the gospel coalition is on record as saying the pericope adulterae is not canonical. So the bible WAS infallible…until the powers that be decided it wasn’t and once the problems were fixed (Mark 16 etc.) presto! it’s infallible again.

    It makes me wonder how frustrated our risen Lord must have been to find that the first person to proclaim his resurrection was a woman. How would he explain it to Paul? How would he explain it to John MacArthur!?

  59. Mark, I am going to try one more time to explain this as a culture command and not pericope of scriptures, so it’s God’s will that women should not preach. Put yourself back in this time, we are coming out of law where women and children had no rights and they weren’t even counted. (Loaves and Fishes)

    I do agree with you when you said, Paul said this, and not Jesus, and if Jesus didn’t want women to teach and preach, Jesus would have said this. So, let’s go to Mark 16 to see what Jesus actually said. When Mary and Salome went to the tomb with spices they found it open and the saw a man, and he told them to go and tell the disciples and Peter that he is going before you to Galilee.( Mark 16:7)

    In Mark 16 verses 9-20 were left out in a lot of early manuscripts, Why? Because exactly what happening in this blog. The religious leaders saw this as going against the law and their culture. Women should not preach, but women were the first to teach Christ Resurrection, and what did Jesus say to the disciples in verse 14, he rebuked them for their hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen.

    If I were a missionary and my mission was Saudi Arabia, I would be like Paul and telling the women to be quit in Church. Women there don’t have rights; they just got the right to drive a car, can you see the problem? if I told women to speak and preach in that culture. I would say the same thing in John MacArthur Church. It would cause a lot of controversy and division. God just don’t care about controversy and division, Stan does, but sadly God now cares about it, because Satan has use this to divide his children. I would say the same thing Paul said, tell your husband in private and if she had a prophecy or a word from God, have the husband tell it to the Church. God really knows and will give the credit to the woman, but he will allow the man the credit here on earth, to keep the peace.

    Pastor’s we need to pray to know God’s heart and his will, and we need to pray for discernment. Does it sound like God to disqualify 50% of the people to spread the good news? To me this sounds like Satan.

    • But theres a problematic paradox in your explanation. The command of Paul (if it was Paul who wrote the pastorals) served to set in concrete the authority to discriminate against women for over two thousand years. It was applied to all sorts of social structures in the Christianized Western world. Pauls command appears highly authoritative and furthermore is extremely harmonious with the natural inclination of men to suppress women.

      Furthermore your explanation is pushed aside by the author himself in that he provides theological justification for his discriminatory policy and it has NOTHING to do with contemporary mores. Look again. “It was the woman who was first deceived.” That is a foundational curse against ALL womenin the mind of the author that transcends the culture of the day. If the author is going back to the beginning to justify silencing women, why would not all people of all time assume that it should apply to the very end.

      Your defense of the command based on cultural necessity is another inevitable pretzel of assumptions that are required to prop up the notion of infallibility in the face of clear textual absurdity.

  60. When Paul wrote the Pastorals, I believe he had no ideal that we would be reading them two thousand years later. He wrote them for the time he was living in. I believe that God put the words in him when he wrote about Eve being the first deceived. Why? I think if Paul would have said what Jesus said in Mark 16:14 and rebuke the religious leaders for not listening to women and believe what they say about Christ, they would have killed him and God needed Paul to do more writing. Just think about this, if this is so important to God, don’t you think that he would made sure that a man would be the first to teach this, and in fact a man was the first to find him, but he did not teach this, a women did. If this subject is so important don’t you think Jesus would have said multiple times, Truly, Truly I say to you only man shell teach and preach and spread the good news. He did not. This is all Satan dividing us. Let’s not fall for Satan deceptions.

    Please Jesus let the Holy Spirit come upon us and reveal Our Fathers Heart, and soften our hearts, so we can see your will and give us discernment, so we won’t fall for Satan’s deceptions.

  61. The Holy Spirit this morning put a thought in my mind to ask the three question that I wrote in the All In Blog on this website. So, let’s do it.

    Put your feet on both sides and ask, if the way I believe could it stop the chase to get closer to Jesus, or stop the race or hinder it? The way I believe, I would listen to women and test what they say, and discern it to see if it aligns with God. Its sound like the teaching of the Word.

    If women are to be silent then we should do exactly what the disciples did in the story of Mark 16:14 and not listen or believe them. If you do this it sounds like you wouldn’t even start the chase to get closer to Jesus.

    Which side will grieve the Holy Spirit or hinder him? The way I believe my heart is soft and again I will listen to them to see if God may be using them to tell me something, or tech me something new, or I need to hear something for my life.

    If I believe women are to be silent this would hinder the Holy Spirit and Grieve him because women would be off limits to the Holy Spirit for teaching and prophesying a word form God.

    Question 3 Put your feet in Satan shoes and ask, If I were Satan how would I deceive them, trick them, or lie to them, so they would think they are right with God?

    When I did this, I would do exactly what Satan has done in this case. Paul wrote this and it’s in the Word so this must be God’s will, but I know my Father’s Heart and it doesn’t sound like my Father in Heaven. It’s sounds like a culture problem and Paul keeping the peace. Our Father is all about Peace, Joy, and unity. Satan is the opposite, but he will use light to deceive us.

    • “Our Father is all about Peace, Joy, and unity.” Really? This sounds like a whole bunch of Nice warm water to be spit out. Paul was so Peaceful , Joyful and so for unity at all costs that folks just loved him so much! The Body loved him yes everyone else hated him! He spoke the truth and people dont like the truth! The truth is by definition exclusive. The truth doesn’t unify sheep and goats it separates them. . What about Luke 12:51 what about our love for
      Christ should make other relationships look like hate? Shouldn’t we love the Word and Truth and Righteousness more than Peace Joy and Unity?
      Unity with The Catholic Church? With Beth Moore saying they are our Brothers and Sisters? What about anchoring our hearts with Christ and standing for the Word
      not for Unity at the cost of truth?

      • Hi Troy,

        I can see where you’re coming from. But as someone who believes deeply in the authority of Scripture and the call to uphold God’s truth, I have a hard time with your pick-and-choose approach to Scripture. You’re taking biblical commands to love, to pursue peace, to exhibit joy, and to avoid divisions and you’re saying that they don’t matter. If we believe in the authority of Scripture, we have to come to terms with the reality that the same Bible that includes Luke 12:51 also includes Mark 12:29–31 and a whole lot of other passages that prioritize love, grace, patience, peace, and unity.

        If it helps, we wrote about this a while back: https://jackasstheology.com/2019/08/23/the-heresy-of-unity/

        You don’t have to agree, of course, but it’s simply inaccurate to put truth and unity at opposite ends of a spectrum.

  62. Let me give a warning here. In Gal 5:19 Paul gives a warning of the works of the flesh: some are enmity,strife, fits of anger, rivairies ,dissensions, divisions, and look what it says at the end of verse 21 I warn you, as I warned you before , that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfuliness, gentleness, self control, against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

    Church and church we need to know God’s heart and his warnings and I give this warning in LOVE so we can see how far we have fallen away from God Almighty. We need to turn back to God if there is ant hope for rivival.

    • Yes i totally agree with you both. I am not dividing over the color of the carpet in the sanctuary here. I am talking about a false gospel.
      This, the Word is very clear about dividing over. Galations 1:8-9. This Paul does say twice. Aside from preaching and teaching, Beth Moore
      as well as others are saying the Catholic church is our brothers and sisters. I see that as an end all and calls for separation even in other places John’s writings.
      Are you saying the Catholic church doesn’t have a false gospel? I know this is a bit off subject but still so very connected.

  63. Troy, read my first post in the ALL IN on this website. I think it will answer your question. The disciples walk with Jesus and they mess up a lot. In God’s eye’s there is only one Church. In the Word there is one Church. We humans with the help of the flesh, Satan, and the World, have divided the Church. There are Churches, Pastors and people think they have all this nailed down two thousand years later. If we did, we would not be seeing what I am seeing in our country and the world today.

    • You don’t think it is at least nailed down enough to call out a false gospel? Or is that arrogant and unloving? When someone accepts a false gospel
      are we not to separate from them? Are we not to call it out?

  64. Yes, we need to call it out and this is what I am doing. Let me ask you a question. Why doesn’t God not want women to teach and spread the good new? How does this benefit God and his Children?

    • First i didn’t see if you said the Catholic Church had a false Gospel? Are you calling that out? Also Beth Moore said they were our brothers and sisters? Are you calling her out for that? I am calling out her
      for false teaching and partnering with a false gospel first and foremost. I dont think women preachers are where i would draw a line in the sand
      I am saying If your for partnering with the Catholic Church like Beth Moore is than you shouldn’t be, and the Church should know this and not
      accept it.

  65. Like I said in the ALL IN post, every single chruch has problems with doctine and I have call every one out for that, and saying they have fallen short. Our Father would like every church to drop their name and just be the Church, and every one be in one Spirit and have the minset of Christ. If you want me to call out someone because of what they said, such as Beth and the Catholic Church. No I won’t, because I don’t know the individual hearts of everyone and that would be judgeing, and we should not judge. The Catholic Church was the fist Church and I will say it has fallen along way from God. I will pray for the Church and the people for the Holy Spirit to convict and show them the light so they maybe Brothers and Sister in God. Jesus came to save the world and thats my hope..

  66. He calls out a lot of Christians. Very dangerous ground. The scripture log out of his own eye was missed when he read the bible.
    There is a special place in hell for those dividing the church with hate speech and arrogance.

  67. I was listening to McArtur on you tube and became a little suspicious. I started to check on him and came to this site, which makes me even more disturbed. I am only going to reference the article and some exchanges. Everyone who reads this can take it for what it is worth and we all understand we will all have to face God for what we say and do. I am a sinner saved by grace of a merciful God. With that being said I have to first establish. Is God perfect? Is God’s word ordained by him? Did God not say in the ordained Word that he will protect his Word and it is the same yesterday, today and forever? God does not change? If you agree with what I have just said we are on the path if you disagree then I would suggest diving into God’s word.

    If a Christian you know offends you the Bible is very clear to go to your brother privately, this does not appear private. This is a full on public display. If your brother disagrees then you get several fellow Christians and go before the one who has sinned and if he still does not change then you take it before the church. Matthew 18:15-17.

    This brings me to the main reason I am writing this. We have become lukewarm in our Christianity. How do I know because we have taken God’s word, the Bible, and twisted it to accommodate. How can I say this because after growing up in a Christian home and church I have watched for 40 years as “christians” have changed God’s words. While I do not agree with how the pastors spoke about the woman pastor I definitely do not agree with people justifying woman pastors. Again, If the Bible is God’s ordained word and does not change and the people who wrote Bible passages are ordained through God then you cannot justify woman being pastors. I Timothy 2:9-15.

    My father, a Baptist minister, always said go to God’s word first. Woman are to be teachers and child rearers. My mother was a christian school teacher, a youth group leader, a Sunday school teacher and a soul winner. She was not the pastor of the church, my father was. I Timothy 3: 1-7. Be very mindful this is the head of the church and the Bible is very straight forward saying “he”. Verse 2 “a husband of one wife” God did not say a wife of one husband or a wife of one wife. God has not changed. We continue to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and say we are gods and now that I am smarter, this is what God meant. God was very clear. Time to start reading God’s word and listening to the Holy Spirit because all who say woman can be pastors would know God has not said this is acceptable.

    I am open to have a discussion but if you try to change God’s word or bend it to accommodate I will send you scripture and our conversation is over. I will not change God’s word to make my sins good.

  68. Thank you for speaking up on this Mark. MacArthur’s response is completely lacking in love, grace and humility. It is contemptuous. It is disgusting and nauseating. I will echo the words of several other comments in saying that I have always had an aversion to MacArthur – a ‘gut’ feeling – but this confirms it. Perhaps MacArthur is the one with narcissistic tendencies. He clearly does not respect women. I say this based on my observations as a woman who left a narcissistically abusive marriage and received condemnation rather than support from the church (with the exception of a few who saw what was really going on). Narcissistic abuse is a huge problem in the church, and men like MacArthur (and the women who agree with them) are complicit. They are the same ones who like to rip out of context scriptures like “wives submit to your husbands” and “God hates divorce,” as if that somehow obligates a woman to stay in a marriage where she fears for the safety and well-being of herself and her children. I guess this is a bit of a bunny trail, but I’m not about to waste an opportunity to bring awareness to the issue. As you can see from some of the other comments, I’m not alone.

  69. I just came across this webpage. Though I am no longer a member of the Southern Baptist Convention. I was a youth pastor in a SBC church when Beth Moore first came onto the scene. To put this frankly, the Bible does not allow for the role Moore has played since her beginning. Is there anyone who can explain her approach to hermeneutics? Do her supporters have any concerns about her ecumenicalism, her soft stand on LBGTQ positions, her weird adoption reversal, or her never writing on Biblical Womanhoodhood? Is there any concern about the hyperbolic language or direct revelation or out of context use of bile verses. John MacArthur aside, is there any thing Beth says right does that is unacceptable?

    • Hi Kenny. Thanks for taking the time. There is a massive amount of scholarship that builds a case for women serving in the church in the ways that Beth Moore does. It’s okay if you’d rather not read that scholarship, but it’s there. If you’re interested, you could start with Andrew Bartlett’s book Men and Women in Christ or Lucy Peppiatt’s book Rediscovering Scripture’s Vision for Women. If you do take the time to research this, I hope you’ll notice that these authors (and so many authors) are not saying “Though the Bible does not allow women to fill this type of role…” What they’re doing is engaging with the biblical texts on a deep level, using the same hermeneutics I was taught at John MacAthur’s seminary. I’m saying this with so much love and without any expectation that you need to change your view here. But since you are speaking frankly (which I appreciate), I’m doing the same. I’m also trying to answer your question “Is there anyone who can explain…” Yes. There are many. I’d start with the two recommendations I just gave. With regard to your last question, I’m a little lost on what you’re asking precisely, but I’d say, “Yes, there are things that Beth Moore does that are unacceptable (she acknowledges her imperfection as she seeks to pursue Jesus) and there are also many many things she does that are acceptable (the Holy Spirit has been working through her in ways that are as powerful as anyone in church history).” I’d love to keep the dialogue going if you’re up for it. Do you have any more specific thoughts? I don’t want to miss a specific concern.

  70. They attacked a person viciously behind there back. That is a very grievous sin even for an unbeliever . That is called backbiting which is a sin. I would most likely say a woman is not called to fulltime ministry. But I am not 100 sure of that based on a couple versus of scripture. I lost all respect for macurther and the other man who commented in this video.

  72. Name 1 woman who was an Ordained Pastor/Bishop/Overseer in the bible?? Not a judge! But a Pastor!! Keep in mind, God’s Word says the Bishop, is to be a husband(MAN), of one woman!!!

  73. I do agree with McCarther with the response to Beth Moore, I will not discuss or harp on his response as to why. I do not agree with his response that women do not need to be in power either. However, he is right about the last few waves of feminism.

    She does indeed preach something other than the Gospel. She needs to rethink what she preaches as she is very narcissistic.

    • Like John MacArthur ISN’T narcissistic? He – and other so called judgmental Christians have driven me away from god. They can’t agree on anything. Christians are Christianity’s worse enemy.

  75. The founder of Christian Science and Seventh Day Adventists were women. Different times and different women.
    Gladys Lindbergh founded Lindbergh Nutrition and owned stores. Her descendants still sell nutritional supplements.
    If you don’t like John MacArthur then change to another church.
    My aunt and uncle left St. James Protestant church on Ventura blvd. in the valley because the adult church class had a B.Y.O.B. New Year’s party. My aunt was against drinking so they changed to a Baptist church because my aunt said Baptists don’t drink. In the mid 1960’s they changed to John Macarthur’s church along with a dozen others from the Baptist church. They loved him however I thought he was like a cult leader. My aunt taught me when I was ten years old to be a Christian, Conservative and eat health foods. There seems to be a lot of back stabbing among theologians these days. I believe it’s the result of fighting to keep their congregations and keeping the money coming in. As the cost of living keeps rising more of people’s earning are going to necessities and less to theologians.

  76. John MacArthur treats people like garbage because he’s a piece of junk. He has no heart or soul. It’s all intellectualism with him. He is responsible for me losing my faith by condemning non-Trinitarians. Even believing and teaching that the murder of non-Trinitarian Michael Servetus was justified. I hate him. – Goodbye Christianity!

    • You left the faith you never had. No such thing as a non-trinitarian Christian. You stand condemned under the judgment of the living God, not John MacArthur.

  77. Mark,
    You’re still wrong. When are you going to repent of your unbiblical criticism of MacArthur and your unbiblical support of Moore? When you pick culture over biblical fidelity we all lose.

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